On 13 Oct 2011, at 22:50, benjayk wrote:

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Bruno Marchal wrote:If you are really humble, just don't make any statements about whether you reasoning is valid or not.I don't defend any truth but I am still offering a reasoning to you. If you find it invalid it is your task to find the flaw. That's is by definition of reasoning.By saying that no flaw has been found, while people have pointed outflawsthat you just don't accept as such (whether valid or not is not even important),

`On the contrary, once we are genuinely interested in the topic, that`

`is what is important. The rest is meta-discussion distracting from the`

`topic.`

It seems to me "purely" rational arguments are only especiallydogmaticarguments, like arguments purely based on belief.

`Rational argument are always based on belief, that is, by people ready`

`to be shown false.`

`Irrational arguments are based on knowledge, which is never rational,`

`nor even a rational notion, because it is based on truth. That is why`

`in science, there is only beliefs, at least if we accept Popper idea`

`that a scientific proposition has to be refutable. I am not talking on`

`human scientists, who falls in the trap of believing non fallible, but`

`on sort of ideal science.`

*All* reasoning suppose their premise true for the sake of the reasoning.But in some case the reasoning itself cannot be seperated from thepremise.If I don't share the premise that 1+1=2, I can still see that 1+2=3followsfrom that. This may not be the case with all arguments, and it seemsto methis is the case with COMP.

`Comp, on the contrary, warns explicitly that it might be false, and`

`that: if it is true, this cannot be shown by a rational argument. If a`

`doctor pretended that science has proved that the brain is a computer,`

`you better run away, because, IF the brain is a computer THEN no one`

`can show it to be a computer. This is a subtle point. It is like`

`"consistency" for a LUM (or for Peano Arithmetic). Peano Arithmetic`

`can prove that if Peano Arithmetic is consistent, then Peano`

`Arithmetic cannot prove it.`

`COMP is very similar with a notion of self-consistency, and it`

`provides a sort of rational near inconsistency experience.`

Bruno Marchal wrote:A common technic to prove that A entails B consists in supposing Aandgetting B from that. This does not prove that A is true, it proves only that IF A is true then B is true. In many-world terms it means that in all words were A is true, B is also true. It means there is no world in which A is true and B is not true. But it does not mean that A is true in all world. A common technic to prove that A is false, for example, will consists in assuming A and getting a contradiction from it (like 0 = 1), and then deducing NOT A, from that, despite the reasoning worked by supposing A to be true. So the validity of a reasoning is completely independent of the true or falsity of the premise.This may be the case for formal arguments,

It is the case with informal argument too.

but yours isn't strictly formal(necessarily so because "Yes" doctor, including correct substitutionlevelis not formal and the reasoning has to reference that), and so noformalcontradiction can be found - or even no contradiction at all.

`You can get informal contradiction. That's what Stathis shows up with`

`Craig's theory. Stathis' reasoning is informal but valid. Craig's`

`reply is informal but non valid, as Stathis patiently points out.`

If you were true, no discussion at all would make sense. In fact rigorous/non-rigorous has nothing to do with formal/informal.

This doesn'timply that the reasoning is valid. Otherwise all informal argumentswould bevalid, which is clearly not true.

`Of course. But if you find a reasoning non valid, it is up to you to`

`say where and why specifically.`

Bruno Marchal wrote:PS I might comment other paragraph, but I am unfortunately very busy, so I will limit to answer only one paragraph which I might find more important, or summing up others.Don't bother. You are just wasting your time, frankly I have nointerest inthis discussion anymore.

`You did really lost me. I did not see your point at all in some of`

`your late posts. I have begun to answer one, but then some remarks you`

`did made me realize it would make no sense of trying to answer the`

`post. I was enjoying discussing with you, but then, all of a sudden,`

`you lost me through a labyrinth of negative and emotional remarks,`

`which cannot really been answered.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.