2011/10/16 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> > > On 16 Oct 2011, at 04:22, Terren Suydam wrote (answering Craig): > > > > Exactly. I think that it can be better understood as a phenomenon > > which is not only an emergent property of ensembles of neurons, but > > granular properties in the moment of an individual entity's behavior > > over time. It has to go both ways otherwise there could be no reason > > or mechanism for us to care about anything. > > > What do you mean by "going both ways"? Causality really does not > cross levels. All we can say is that higher levels emerge > from/supervene on lower levels. If that gives you problems in seeing > how we could have a phenomenological experience of will, then that is > a failure of imagination on your part. Unless, you can come up with a > principled argument as to why, for one, "there could be no reason or > mechanism for us to care about anything," and for another, how > causality can "go both ways". Rhetoric won't do. I need detailed > arguments. > > > and > > On 11 Oct 2011, at 14:45, Stathis Papaioannou wrote (answering Craig): > > Your solution seems to be to hide in a cave of pre-scientific > > incuriousity. Content to let our entire lives as we experience them > > natively to be sequestered in a never-never land that is neither > > physical nor spiritual. Your assumptions paint conscious subjects as > > epiphenomenal non-objects, orphaned from reason, science, or any > > possibility of understanding. > > > Further, they deny their own self-invalidation without justification, > > so that somehow these thoughts of exclusively deterministic > > epistemology are themselves immune from their own critical purview. It > > is to say that all thought is 'simply' neurology - except this > > thought. This is the one special magic thought which disqualifies all > > others. It is a philosophy that appeals to many, for obvious reasons, > > as it provides the sense of certainty and safety which we crave. The > > truth is that is thought is 'simply' the mirror image of new age > > religiosity, but owing more of it's spirit to the Inquisition. > > > I really can't understand your emotional objection to the idea that > consciousness may be epiphenomenal and supervenient on mechanistic > processes. It doesn't worry me or affect my behaviour; why should it? > > > > If consciousness is an epiphenomena, and given that the physical laws will > be explains in term of coherent appearances in machine's consciousness > (dreams), eventually both consciousness and matter are epiphenomena. > > As s rebuttal to Craig non-comp stance and ex-nihilo spontaneous will > causation, the argument is valid. But the phrasing is dubious. Better to use > "phenomenological" instead of epiphenomena, I think. > > And, I would say, against Terren, that causality can cross level of > explanation, even if I agree that there is some unaccessible low level, > which is just the arithmetical law, when assuming comp. But a universal > machine can emulate a cyclic "causal" relationships, like a universe can > emulate someone taking an aspirin to act on its brain, and an aspirin can > indeed act on the brain, which at some high level is a cross level > relationship, even if at a more lower level, all this is completely > deterministic. We need this because high level explanation are unavoidable > (the comp theory force an explanation of both mind and matter in term of > higher epistemological level). > > I think it is important. The materialist eliminativists do that confusion > so that consciousness becomes a mere epiphenomena, which is the purgatory > before elimination. With comp this would eliminate both mind and matter, > with only the numbers remaining. The moral is that high level phenomena are > what is important, and can have local role. That is what gives free-will a > genuine sense in the compatibilistic determinist frame. It is also what > gives consciousness (phenomenological bet on a reality) a genuine power, > like a relative self-speeding up. > > Low level phenomena (like quantum wave or arithmetic) can account for a > high level phenomenon, but usually cannot 'explained' it in any reasonable > sense of the terms. Nobody will explain a murder by a quantum field. > Already, nobody will explain deep blue strategy by invoking the computer's > gate running deep blue programs. >
That's what I wanted to explain to craig... when you run a program on a computer... the low level of the computer (the transistors of the cpu) are constraint by the program, it is the high level (the program) that "drives" the physical states of the CPU. Explanation will be phenomenologically explains by higher order > phenomenological facts, and sometimes invoking genuine cross level > causation. Like, he did the murder but is not guilty, he just became mad due > to a brain tumor, said the lawyer. The judge answered: he is guilty of > irresponsibility because he got got a brain tumor by attempting to suicide > by drinking radioactive materials. > > Only from God's point of view, everything is deterministic, and from that > view, consciousness is, well, just absent. But from the internal views there > will be real solid material appearances and real conscious experiences. > > Of course, this is only vocabulary. Actually such loops and cross level > "causality" are well explained by computer sciences, and so we don't need to > postulate 'material mind' to make the mind acting on matter, and producing > things like symphony, Mona Lisa and atomic bombs. Biology is full of such > kind of loop. > > Bruno > > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.