On 14.01.2012 17:56 meekerdb said the following:
On 1/14/2012 12:08 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 14.01.2012 03:06 meekerdb said the following:
On 1/13/2012 2:50 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 13.01.2012 22:36 meekerdb said the following:
On 1/13/2012 12:54 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:


By the way in the Gray's book the term intelligence is not
even in the index. This was the biggest surprise for me
because I always thought that consciousness and
intelligence are related. Yet, after reading the book, I
agree now with the author that conscious experience is a
separate phenomenon.

So does Gray think that beings can be conscious without being
intelligent or intelligent without being conscious?

The first part is definite yes, for example "But we can, I believe,
 safely assume that mammals possess conscious experience."

But mammals are quite intelligent? More intelligent than self-driving
 cars for example. So then I'm left to wonder what Gray means by
"intelligent"; except you say he doesn't even use the term.

I agree that mammals are more intelligent than self-driving cars. Gray though does not discuss the term "intelligent", so I do not know his opinion to this end.

There is no clear answer for the second part in the book. Well, for

"Language, for example, cannot be necessary for conscious

It's not necessary for awareness and perception, but I think it is
necessary for some kinds of ratiocination.

Yes, but it might be that ratiocination is not necessary for conscious experience.


The reverse, however, may be true: it may be that language (and
other functions) could not be evolved in the absence of conscious

It depends however on the definition, I would say that a
self-driving car is intelligent and a rock not, but even in this
case it is not completely clear to me how to define it

Gray's personal position is that consciousness survival values is
"late error detection" that happens through some multipurpose and
multi-functional display. This fits actually quite good in
cybernetics but leaves a question open about the nature of such a

But it leaves our imaginative planning.



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