On 14.01.2012 19:56 Stephen P. King said the following:
On 1/14/2012 1:15 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 14.01.2012 18:12 John Clark said the following:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 meekerdb<meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
There is no way consciousness can have a direct Darwinian
advantage
so it must be a byproduct of something that does have that
virtue, and the obvious candidate is intelligence.\
That's not so clear since we don't know exactly what is the
relation of consciousness to intelligence. For a social animal
having an internal model of ones self and being able to model
the thought processes of others has obvious reproductive
advantage.
To do any one of the things you suggest would require
intelligence, and indeed there is some evidence that in general
social animals tend to have a larger brain than similar species
that are not social. But at any rate we both seem to agree that
Evolution can only see behavior, so consciousness must be a
byproduct of some sort of complex behavior. Thus the Turing Test
must be valid not only for intelligence but for consciousness
too.
How would you generalize the Turing Test for consciousness?
Evgenii
John K Clark
Hi,
Perhaps we can generalize the Turing test by insisting on questions
that would require for their answer computational resources in excess
of that would be available to a computer + power suply in a small
room. Think of the Berkenstein bound
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekenstein_bound>.... But the Turing
Test is a bit of an oxymoron because it is impossible to prove the
existence of something that is solely 1p. There is no 3p of
consciousness. I recall Leibniz' discussion
<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz-mind/> of this...
Onward!
Stephen
There are experiments that demonstrate that a monkey has conscious
experience, see for example a short description
http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2011/08/monkey-have-conscious-visual-perception.html
Hence, how would you generalize the Turing test to check if a monkey has
consciousness?
It well might be that between mind and consciousness there is no 1 to 1
relationship. For example let us take people with Alzheimer's disease in
the advanced phase (from Wikipedia)
"During this last stage of AD, the person is completely dependent upon
caregivers.[25] Language is reduced to simple phrases or even single
words, eventually leading to complete loss of speech.[25][29] Despite
the loss of verbal language abilities, people can often understand and
return emotional signals.[25] Although aggressiveness can still be
present, extreme apathy and exhaustion are much more common results.[25]
People with AD will ultimately not be able to perform even the simplest
tasks without assistance.[25] Muscle mass and mobility deteriorate to
the point where they are bedridden, and they lose the ability to feed
themselves.[25] AD is a terminal illness, with the cause of death
typically being an external factor, such as infection of pressure ulcers
or pneumonia, not the disease itself.[25]"
What about the Turing test for a person in that state to check if he
still has consciousness?
Evgenii
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