On 25 Jan 2012, at 18:04, Stephen P. King wrote:
I am 99% in agreement with Craig here. The 1% difference is a
quibble over the math. We have to be careful that we don't reproduce
the same slide into sophistry that has happened in physics.
I think I agree. I comment Craig below.
On 1/25/2012 7:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Jan 25, 2:05 am, meekerdb<meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
It is not at all camouflaged; Lawrence Krause just wrote a book
called "A Universe From
Nothing". That the universe came from nothing is suggested by
calculations of the total
energy of the universe. Theories of the origin of the universe
have been developed by
Alexander Vilenkin, Stephen Hawking and James Hartle. Of course
the other view is that
there cannot have been Nothing and Something is the default.
"The most reasonable belief is that we came from nothing, by
nothing, and for nothing."
--- Quentin Smith
I think that we are all familiar with the universe from nothing
theories, but the problem is with how nothing is defined. The
possibility of creating a universe, or creating anything is not
'nothing', so that any theory of nothingness already fails if the
definition of nothing relies on concepts of symmetry and negation,
dynamic flux over time, and the potential for physical forces, not to
mention living organisms and awareness. An honestly recognized
'nothing' must be in all ways sterile and lacking the potential for
existence of any sort, otherwise it's not nothing.
I agree too. That is why it is clearer to put *all* our assumptions on
the table. Physical theories of the origin, making it appearing from
physical nothingness, makes sense only in, usually mathematical,
theories of nothingness. It amounts to the fact that the quantum
vacuum is unstable, or even more simply, a quantum universal
dovetailer. This assumes de facto a particular case of comp, the
believes in the existence of at least one (Turing) universal system.
As you might know, choosing this particular one is treachery, in the
mind body problem, given that if that is the one, it has to be
explained in term of a special sum on *all* computational histories
independently of the base (the universal system) chosen at the start.
Any formalism describing the quantum vaccuum assumes much more that
the Robinson tiny arithmetical theory for the ontology needed in comp.
Nothing physical does not mean nothing conceptual. You have still too
assume the numbers, at the least. So it assumes more and it copies
nature (you can't, with comp, or you lost the big half of everything).
My view is that the default is neither nothing or something but
I think there coexist, and are explanativaely dual of each others. In
both case you need the assumptions needed to make precise what can
exist and what cannot exist.
If you have an eternal everything then the universe of
somethings and sometimes can be easily explained by there being
temporary bundling of everything into isolated wholes, collections of
wholes, collections of collections, etc, each with their own share of
small share of eternity.
This is what I am trying to say with Bruno about numbers starting
1 instead of 0. From 1 we can subtract 1 and get 0,
So we get 0 after all.
but from 0, no
logical concept of 1 need follow.
No logical concept, you are right (although this is not so easy to
proof). But you have the *arithmetical* (yes, *not* logical), notion
of a number's successor, noted s(x). We assume that all numbers have
successors. And we can even define 0 as the only one which is not a
successor, by assuming Ax(~(0= s(x))) (for all number 0 is different
from the successor of that number).
having the symbol 0, we can actually name all numbers: by 0, s(0),
s(s(0)), s(s(s(0))), s(s(s(s(0)))), s(s(s(s(s(0))))), ...
0 is just 0. 0 minus 0 is still 0.
Yes. That's correct. And for all numbers x, you have also that x + 0 =
x. Worst: for all number x, x*0 = 0.
That 0 is a famous number!
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