On 3/12/2012 10:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 12 Mar 2012, at 05:50, John Clark wrote:

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote:

        >>  Do they really have to state that they assume existence exists?


    > You mean that primary matter exists? Yes that is an hypothesis.


So your complaint is that a biologist like Richard Dawkins doesn't start all his books with "I assume matter exists". Bruno, that's just nuts.

Yes that would be nuts, but that is not what I am talking about.
I meant that he should assume PRIMARY matter, instead of taking it for granted, in his book on THEOLOGY, like his "The God Delusion".




        >>  It would be great if I could explain exactly why there is something 
rather
        than nothing but unfortunately I don't know how to do that, but a 
atheist does
        not need to,


    > I am not sure anybody needs that


A atheist would need that if a theist could explain why there is something rather than nothing, I would be in a pew singing hymns next Sunday if they could do that, but of course no God theory can provide even a hint of a hint of a answer to that.

AUDA is an elementary counter-example. Read my paper on Plotinus. Prerequisites: a good book in mathematical logic (Mendelson, Epstein-Carnielly, Boolos-Burgess-Jeffrey, ...).

The "correct" theology of a machine is defined by the set of true sentences *about* the machine. The proper theological part is given by what is true (and might be known) but can't be justified rationally.

The nice thing with comp, is that you can still justify a part of that truth rationally at the meta-level from the comp necessarily hypothetical assumption of being an arithmetically sound machine (= relatively finite digital entity).




    > I have no problem with those who say that they are not interested in such 
or such
    question.


Well, personally I feel that anybody who has not even thought about it a little would be a bit dull, and somebody who thinks about it a lot is probably wasting time that could be more productively spent.

Why judge people interest and passion?




A important part of genius is to know what problem to go after, it should be profound enough to make a big increase in our understanding but not so difficult as to be out of reach. For example in Darwin's day there was no possibility of figuring out how chemicals turned into life, but a real first class genius might be able to figure out how one species can change into another, and that's exactly where Darwin set his sights. But for Darwin's ideas to come into play you've got to start with a reproducing entity; so he could explain how bacteria turned into a man but not how chemicals turned into bacteria, so Darwin explained a hell of a lot but he didn't explain everything nor did he (or Dawkins) ever claim to.

    > Only with those who assert that it is a false problem, a crackpot field


It's not a crackpot field but I think you would have to admit that it does attract more that its fair share of crackpots.

That is normal given it is very fundamental. That's why fear sellers like to appropriate them, and of course they injure the field, and the humans, a lot, but they does not betray everything, and, especially in front of the mind body problem, we have to be cautious not throwing the best together with the worst.

Physics does not address the theological question, so to oppose physics and the abrahamic theologies makes physics confused with physicalism/materialism. It makes physics like taking metaphysically for granted the main point of the abrahamic theologies, which mainly take the physical reality existing as such. Of course such a belief is widespread, but the greek platonists created science, including theology, by taking distance with that idea. By doing so they (re)discovered a mathematical reality which will inspire the world of intelligible ideas.




    > and this by letting believe that science has solve or dissolve the 
question, when
    it is hardly the case.


But Dawkins has never done that, never, and being a biologist most of his books concern how the laws of chemistry (which is already something as he would be the first to admit) produced life, including advanced life like you and me. And Dawkins does not claim he has a complete explanation for even this much more limited (although still very profound) problem. Science in general and Dawkins in particular can't explain everything, but they can explain a lot. Religion can explain nothing, absolutely nothing.


Science can't explain everything, but after Gödel 1931, and using comp, science can explain why, for machine, science cannot explain the "whole truth", nor even give it a name.

Dawkins is correct in denunicating that particular "God delusion", but he fall in that exactly same trap by opposing science and religion.

I believe only in scientific attitude, and that is nor field dependent. And basically it is an attitude of modesty, and of putting clearly the cards, the hypotheses, on the table.





    > The hard body problem is the question of its existence, its nature, 
ontological,
    or epistemological, and where it comes from.


The answer to the hard body problem is 42;

Well actually it is 24, but that's another story.




but now comes the really difficult part, clearly explaining exactly what the hard body problem is.

I just said it. Does it exist? What is his nature, is it made of something? Where and why does it comes from? What are its relation with qualia, etc.




    > I did like a lot "the selfish gene", but was rather disappointing by its 
other
    "philosophical book", where


The Selfish Gene was one of the best books I ever read and Dawkins has advanced philosophy far more than anybody who lists their occupation as "philosopher" on their tax form.

I might agree with you for a class of philosophers, but let us not generalize too much quickly. But yes, I think some philosophers, especially when the power separation are leaking a lot, can even have a bad effect on science, like pseudo-theology can too.




    > he [Dawkins] lacks rigor in the large, and make believe that science give 
credits
    on his pseudo-religious opinion.


Wow, you're calling someone who hates religion religious, how novel, I've been a atheist a long time but I never heard that putdown before!

Just to be clear, I am using this definition of atheism. "g" is for "god 
exists",

But what god? You seem to believe in arithmetic and want to call it "God" so the study of arithmetic = theology. The rest of the world uses "god" to mean an immortal person of magical power. It's perfectly rational to believe there is no immortal person of magical power and hence be an a-theist.

and B is "for believe-in".

Christians = Bg
Atheists = B~g

Agnostic ~Bg  and ~B~g

That's the first reason which makes them "believer". But now, if you replace "g" by "m" = "Primary matter exists", then Both Christians (or only catholics? this is not yet entirely clear for me) and most atheists are of the type "Bm".

That's a second reason to call them believer.

No more that Bc where c=chairs. You are equivocating on "believe" and "god", both of which have a range of meanings.


To practice the scientific attitude in the fundamental field, without begging any question, it seems to me wiser and simpler to be agnostic on both god and matter. Only consciousness here and now can be said to exist without doubt.

~Bg  and ~B~g and ~Bm  and ~B~m

You are careful to specify m = "PRIMARY matter", but you are completely sloppy about the meaning of "god" so that you can include arithmetic and computation as theology. It is just as rational to believe in matter as in consciousness.






    > fanatic atheists and fundamentalist religious people are ally in 
demolishing the
    moderate agnostics interested in the field.


Yes but you almost make that sound like a bad thing.

Er well, yes. Sure. When fanatics harass the moderates many bad things happen 
usually.



At least fundamentalist religious nuts make a clear stand on how they wish to live their life, and atheists do too, they feel that the probability of God existing

Which God?
And that's the hard God problem. Which one? The Platonist one? the Aristotelian one? the Chinese tao? the primary physical universe? Arithmetical truth? Set Theoretical Truth?

Science is not an answer. Science is the only a tool. Whatever you believe in is a religion.

More word twisting. What's the difference between 'believe in' and 'believe'. I believe I'm typing on a keyboard - that doesn't make it a religion.

To oppose science to religion is like to oppose science to biology, or science 
and math.

No it's not because math and biology don't teach that evolution didn't happen, the Earth is 6000yrs old, women are inferior, human sacrifice is necessary to make the sun rise, condoms cause AIDS, and homosexuals should be stoned to death.

Science is the building of lantern to put light around us, religion is the believe that there is something.



is just too low to worry about

and so plays no role in their life, but agnostics are just fence sitting wimps who give religion FAR more respect than it deserves.

It quite depends of which one. Some are agnostics just by lack of interest in the field, others, by fear, prefer to avoid the questions. Others, more rare, like the question and are agnostic by lack of information or evidences. Or they are dissatisfied with the current definition or meta-definitions. All this equivalently about m, g and other questions.

But scientifically we have to be agnostic, and make clear what are our assumptions in our theoretical frame. It is far to easy to beg the questions here.

In science we are agnostic on what there is, but we are always believer in something not completely rationally justifiable.

In life we make choices, but we don't have to believe they are always correct. So far as I can tell there isn't any decision that is *completely* rationally justifiable. But that doesn't mean that some choices are much better justified than others.

Brent
Atheism is not a religion, just as a vacant lot is not a type of
building, and health is not a form of sickness.
    --- Jim Heldberg


With computer science we can already listen to machine looking inward and meeting the main non justifiable truth.

And you don't need UDA to study this, just mathematical logic. AUDA is an abstract form of UDA, by and for, machines.

Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/>



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