On Apr 2, 3:14 pm, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 2, 9:52 am, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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> > On Mar 14, 6:08 pm, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> > > On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdb<meeke...@verizon.net>  wrote:
> > > > >> On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > > > >>>http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract
> > > > >>> Abstract
> > > > >>>           The feeling of being in control of one s own actions is a
> > > > >>> strong subjective experience. However, discoveries in psychology and
> > > > >>> neuroscience challenge the validity of this experience and suggest
> > > > >>> that free will is just an illusion. This raises a question: What 
> > > > >>> would
> > > > >>> happen if people started to disbelieve in free will? Previous 
> > > > >>> research
> > > > >>> has shown that low control beliefs affect performance and 
> > > > >>> motivation.
> > > > >>> Recently, it has been shown that undermining free-will beliefs
> > > > >>> influences social behavior. In the study reported here, we
> > > > >>> investigated whether undermining beliefs in free will affects brain
> > > > >>> correlates of voluntary motor preparation. Our results showed that 
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> readiness potential was reduced in individuals induced to disbelieve
> > > > >>> in free will. This effect was evident more than 1 s before
> > > > >>> participants consciously decided to move, a finding that suggests 
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> the manipulation influenced intentional actions at preconscious
> > > > >>> stages. Our findings indicate that abstract belief systems might 
> > > > >>> have
> > > > >>> a much more fundamental effect than previously thought.
> > > > >>> Has anyone posted this yet? Hard to explain what brain correlates 
> > > > >>> are
> > > > >>> doing responding to an illusion...
> > > > >> I think they just rediscovered hypnotism.
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> > > > >> Brent
> > > > >> "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills."
> > > > >>      --- Schopenhauer
> > > > > If someone is hypnotized to think that they are eating an apple when
> > > > > they are really eating a raw onion, they have to be able to imagine
> > > > > what it is like to eat an apple.
>
> > > > > If someone is hypnotized to think that they have no free will, but
> > > > > free will doesn't exist to begin with, why would there be any
> > > > > difference to the brain?
>
> > > > I someone says to you, "You are paralyzed. You can't lift your arm." 
> > > > and you hear these
> > > > words and interpret them how would that happen without any changes in 
> > > > your brain?
>
> > >  Voluntary movement has to first exist in order for a suggestion of
> > > paralysis to be meaningful.
>
> > "Voluntary" might mean "controlled deterministically by higher brain
> > centres".
>
> The higher brain centers might mean 'us'. We control our own voluntary
> movements. To control is to determine. We determine our movements
> because we are the phenomenological end of the process to which our
> brain is the conjugate. What we want to do is reflected in the
> processes of our brain, but the brain has no opinion at all about our
> voluntary movements. It is our subjective experience and physiological
> process both contribute to who we are and what we do. Neither aspect
> makes sense without the other.


None of that makes sense to me.
>
> > >If all movement was involuntary in the
> > > first place then there would be no significant difference between
> > > passively watching yourself move and passively watching yourself not
> > > move
>
> > > If we had no free will, our belief about it should have no effect on
> > > the actual ability to execute our wishes though our motor cortex.
>
> > Non sequitur.
>
> Why? If you program a machine to believe that it has free will, how
> would such a belief have any effect on its behavior?

It woudl say thins like "yes i do have FW". It might make
different deductions about its status as a moral agent. It might
say things like "how dare you keep me locked up in this lab, i am a
free agent!"

> How could it
> improve its performance in any way?

Dunno. The original claim was "effect", not "Improve". Don't shift the
ground.

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