On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:

> I don't understand how you won't see that would mean that your opinion
> about free will is also noise
>

I don't understand either because I don't know what the ASCII string "free
will" means.

> Without free will, arguing with you would be like arguing with someone
> about what color their own eyes seem to them.
>

Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII string "free will" means.

> If there is no choosing
>

I never said there is no choosing, we choose things all the time. Unlike
the noise "free will" the word "choose" actually means something; if at a
particular time I can see that there are 2 actions (X or Y)  I can take and
I don't know which one to do and then at a later time I find that I am
performing action Y not action X then I have *chosen* to perform action
Y.

> what you believe, then what could possibly be the point of 'debating'
> anything?
>

It's fun and there is always the possibility my opponent will point out an
error in my thinking and I will have learned something.

> a billiard ball is an actual thing and a brain state is an abstract idea
> about patterns
>

This Email is a abstract pattern that contains ideas, so is a book, so is a
symphony; as you say a billiard ball is a thing, it is a noun and contains
no ideas. So the question you have to ask yourself is am I Craig Weinberg
more like a billiard ball or more like a symphony.

> the person is the timespace- sense-motive experience of X.
>

I don't know what that means.

> The whole idea of 'picking' clearly, obviously, relies on a third
> alternative of intentional choice.
>

It's completely binary, your "intentional choice" was caused for a reason
or it was not, if it was then you're a Cuckoo Clock if it wasn't then
you're a Roulette Wheel; a event happened for a reason or it did not happen
for a reason, there is no third alternative.

> I'm talking about the existence of feeling as a phenomenon in the
> universe. It makes no sense logically.
>

Then how can I deduce what feeling my actions will cause in my fellow human
beings and be correct most of the time? If people did not have this ability
we could not live together and civilization would be impossible. Turing
Machines have states that cause them to behave one way rather than another
to a stimuli, and people have moods.

> Are cuckoo clocks or roulette wheels responsible for their actions?
>

Certainly! If a cuckoo clock no longer cuckoos or a roulette wheel no
longer turns they get thrown away, and believers in capital punishment
think that if a human being no longer functions properly with other people
it should be thrown away too.

> It can't be a deterrent to anyone if nobody has the free will to control
> their own behavior.
>

Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII string "free will" means.

> Of course matter and mind can change each other. That doesn't mean that
> mind is a product of matter.
>

Change the matter and the mind changes, change the mind and the matter
changes. What more do you need?

> The TV show isn't a product of the TV set.
>

The TV show changes the TV set and if not enough TV sets are changed by the
TV show the TV show changes or gets canceled; and with AI a TV set could
create its own TV show, video games are a step in this direction.

> I am the universe. Whatever I believe is what the universe believes local
> to me.
>

So now your resorting to "truthiness" and all the "it's true for me"
crapola.

>> And it is well known that the naive philosophical beliefs of most people
>> are always correct.
>>
>
> > Have sophisticated theories of established authorities fared much better
> in history?
>

Yes.

  John K Clark

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