On 6/11/2012 6:09 AM, David Nyman wrote:

On 11 June 2012 13:04, Bruno Marchal<marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:Why do you think that pure indexicality (self-reference) is not enough? It seems clear to me that from the current state of any universal machine, it will look like a special moment is chosen out of the others, for the elementary reason that such a state individuates the "present moment here and now" from her point of view.Yes, but the expression "from the current state of any universal machine" (different sense of universal, of course) already *assumes* the restriction of universal attention to a particular state of a particular machine. Hoyle on the other hand is considering a *universal state of attention* and hence needs to make such isolation of particulars *explicit*. The beam stands for the unique, momentary isolation in experience of that single state from the class of all possible states (of all possible machines). Thus, momentarily, the *single* universal knower can be in possession of a *single* focus of attention, to the exclusion of all others. This is the only intelligible meaning of mutually-exclusive, considered at the *universal level*. If you remove such a principle of isolation, how can the state of knowledge of the universal knower ever be anything other than a sum over all experiences, which can never be the state of any single mind? Sure, the states are "all there at once", but what principle allows "you", in the person of the universal knower, to restrict your attention to any one of them?

`That seems confused. The theory is that 'you' are some set of those states. If you`

`introduce an external 'knower' you've lost the explanatory function of the theory.`

Brent

It seems to me that, if one wants to make sense of the notion of a *universal* locus of experience, with personal identity emerging only as a secondary phenomenon, you are bound in the first place to consider matters from that universal point of view. And then you must not forget that this point of view, *as a knower*, is also *your* point of view. Hence to the extent that you, *as a merely subsidiary characteristic of such a universal point of view*, are restricted to "one place, one time", so must it be equally restricted. Do remember that I accept that this is a heuristic, or way of thinking; I do not know how, or if, it corresponds to any fundamental principle of reality. But I think that if one purges one's mind of the implicit assumptions I mention above, one can see that the notions of "a single universal point of view" and "everything considered together" are actually mutually exclusive. So pick one or the other, but not both together. David

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.