On Jun 15, 5:17 pm, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 6/15/2012 8:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
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> > On 14 Jun 2012, at 18:21, John Clark wrote:
>
> >> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012  Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >>     > I don't understand how we can change the judicial system if we don't 
> >> have free
> >>     will. All we can do is exist and watch to see whether we end up being 
> >> compelled to
> >>     change it or not by forces outside of our control.
>
> >> And so it goes, one group screams cries and jumps up and down insisting 
> >> that we do have
> >> free will and another group is just as insistent that we do not. But 
> >> neither group can
> >> stop yelling for one second to ask what "free will"  is supposed to mean. 
> >> I humbly
> >> suggest that we first decide what "free will" is, and only then would it 
> >> be fruitful to
> >> debate the question of whether people have this interesting property or 
> >> not; until then
> >> it's just a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying 
> >> nothing.
>
> > OK. Perhaps we should always make at least precise if we talk about 
> > compatibilist free
> > will (c-free-will) or non comptatibilist free will (nc-free-will). People 
> > defending
> > nc-free-will should say so.
>
> > In comp, c-free-will is rather easy to define, and even a variety of ways, 
> > and computer
> > science theorem justifies a role, and plausibly a "darwinian selectable 
> > role" for some
> > of the possible definitions.
>
> > About nc-free-will, I have not any idea (yet?) about what it could mean. I 
> > tend to agree
> > with John on this.
>
> It seems pretty clear.  It's an ability to make decisions in a spirit realm 
> and have them
> implemented in the physical realm.

No: it;'s the ability to have made a difference but still rational
decision under the
same circumstances. What you are talking about is a third kind of FW,
a kind
that is not just incompatibilist but supernatural to boot. But there
are naturalistic
libertarians.

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