On 01 Jul 2012, at 09:57, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

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On 01.07.2012 09:38 meekerdb said the following:On 7/1/2012 12:25 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:On 30.06.2012 22:31 meekerdb said the following:On 6/30/2012 12:20 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:On 30 Jun 2012, at 18:44, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:I think that you have mentioned that mechanism is incompatible with materialism. How this follows then?Because concerning computation and emulation (exact simulation) all universal system are equivalent. Turing machine and Fortran programs are completely equivalent, you can emulate any Turing machine by a fortran program, and you can emulate any fortran program by a Turing machine. More, you can write a fortran program emulating a universal Turing machine, and you can find a Turing machine running a Fortran universal interpreter (or compiler). This means that not only those system compute the same functions from N to N, but also that they can compute those function in the same manner of the other machine.But the question is whether they 'compute' anything outside the context of a physical realization?Personally I am not sure if they compute anything even in a physical realization. To make my point, let us consider some device that implements a PID controller, the equation is in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller#PID_controller_theory Now let us start with the M-theory (or any other) and consider the functioning device in this framework. There is dynamics and evolution of superstrings, however it is unclear to me what happens with the equation for the PID controller in this context. Does it mean that the M-theory computes the equation of the PID controller?I think that's mixing up models with the thing modeled. If there is a device which is PID controller and it is running and controlling something, then we have a set of equations that describes and predicts what will happen, to a good approximation. We might program a computer to compute what that model predicts. M-theory is a speculative theory about matter that, if it's correct, would be the basis of a predictive model of the behavior of the matter making up the device which is a PID controller at a very low level of detail (e.g. elmentary particles and fields).Then what is the relationship between the M-theory and the matter?How matter that must obey to the M-theory knows about it?

`How do babies use their brain? Objects described by a theory does not`

`have to know the theory for "obeying" to the theory.`

If physicists would say that the M-theory is just a model, then Icould understand.

M-theory is just a theory. better to keep model in the logician sense. There are three things, both for mathematical and physical realities: The theory The interpretation of the theory (a model) Reality (a bet)

`Physicists usually confuse either theory and model, or model/`

`interpretation and reality.`

`In the case of M-theory, it is even more difficult, because it is`

`based on QM, and there are no unanimity of what QM means. Then M-`

`theory itself is particularly hard to interpret, even assuming that QM`

`is not problematical.`

However Hawking in Grand Design says that a physical theory is morethan the model. If I have understood his 'model dependent realism'correctly, then according to him the M-theory is the reality.

`A theory is never a reality. That would be a confusion between map and`

`reality. I guess it means that some standard interpretation of M-`

`Theory fits with some reality that he is speculating about.`

`If that is true, then, with comp, M-theory would be equivalent with`

`Robinson arithmetic, which I doubt.`

`If M-theory is the unique description of reality, and if that cannot`

`be derived logically from Robinson arithmetic, then either M-theory is`

`wrong, or computationalism is wrong (we have no relative substitution`

`level). This follows from UDA.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.