Brent,

`By 'ideal scientific standards' I have meant for example this statement`

`from Wikipedia`

`'The Oxford English Dictionary says that scientific method is: "a method`

`or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th`

`century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and`

`experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."'`

`Yet, if we consider how science has been done according to historical`

`facts (not how it could have been done), then there are discrepancies.`

`After all Newton has called in God who from time to time corrects the`

`planets to preserve stability of the Solar system. It is written in his`

`book and this is a historical fact. According to statement above one can`

`even say that this was a result of systematic observation, measurement`

`and experiment.`

`As for entropy and information, I may missed some your arguments. Yet,`

`in all papers you gave me there was written that the equivalence of the`

`thermodynamic entropy and information follows from similarity of the two`

`equations. There were no experiments, observations and measurement to`

`this end. Even more, people who have made this statement have not`

`applied it to typical thermodynamics problems and have not shown how`

`conventional thermodynamic problems (heat engines and computing phase`

`equilibria) benefit from such a statement. My examples to this end are here`

http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2012/02/entropy-and-information.html

`Finally, you are right that when living brains still exist, one have`

`right to say that a mathematical model survives a death of a couple of`

`mathematicians. The question is how the inexorable laws have functioned`

`when there were no human beings. How the Universe computed itself when`

`the mathematics has not been yet developed?`

Evgenii On 09.04.2012 18:21 meekerdb said the following:

On 4/9/2012 7:28 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:On 08.04.2012 19:55 meekerdb said the following:On 4/8/2012 5:20 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:...I believe that we should consider Newton in his historical context. As far as I have understood, because of not quite right empirical values (masses, etc.) and/or because of low level of mathematics that was available at his time, his use of his laws did not agree with observations.Right. There was no "clash between the facts and Newton's law of gravitation used without additional assumptions." There was a clash between Newton's calculations of the consequences of his laws and the actual consequences.It depends on how you define fact. Imagine that at Newton's time the ideal scientific standards would have been accepted.I don't know what you mean by 'ideal scientific standards'.Then his idea and his paper have been just rejected. "Okay, your idea is nice but you have to work on it some more to make it scientific." Don't you agree?No. The scientists then were not fools. They were well aware that observational data has errors in it. They could recognize that accounting for the gravitational influence of one planet on another was mathematically intractable, so even if the theory were exactly right the approximations necessary to get solutions would not be exact (the same problem with string theory).This is Feyerabend's point, that the Newton laws have been just ad hoc hypotheses, nothing more.That's a silly remark. Newton's insight was that things fell down on the surface of the Earth and if the same for extended out indefinitely it would pull down on the Moon too. But if the Moon was moving fast enough it wouldn't fall to the Earth it would fall around the Earth in an orbit.You cannot say that they come from observations, as they have contradicted to the observations at that time.Newton was influenced by the observation that orbits were ellipses (approximately) and his 1/r^2 law produced ellipses.The most interesting that "Who cares?". The Newton laws have been accepted by the scientific community long time before they have been brought in agreement with observations.But they were never 'brought into agreement' by your 'ideal' standards. The advance of the perihelion of Mercury was never explained until Einstein, although people tried postulating an unobserved planet to account for it."But this meant that Newton's theory gave correct results only when used in an ad hoc way. It did not reveal a feature of universe. Did scientists give up? No. The theory was plausible, it had astonishing successes so it retained despite the fact that, taken literally, it led to absurdities. Besides, many scientists were interested in predictions only and did not care about a metaphysical notion like 'reality'." So, to state that a theory is driven by the facts is actually wrong.No one has stated that. Theory is tested by the facts.In the historical context, the facts are actually driven by a theory.All observations depend on some theory, but not necessarily on the theory being tested.It happens the same way nowadays. Take for a example the superstring theory. It is has not been driven by facts in any way. Or this notion that information is equivalent to the thermodynamic entropy. It has nothing to do with facts at all.Still trying to ride that horse? It's your loss if you can't see the connection.Hence his use of God. This also raises a question about mathematics that bothers me. If we assume that mathematics (for example Newton's laws written as equations) is the result of neuron spikes, then to me this whole story seems like a wonder. For example, try to think about the history of Newton's laws according to the quote from http://www.csc.twu.ca/byl/matter_math_god.pdf (the references are in pdf) "Materialists believe that mathematical objects exist only materially, in our brains.[3] Mathematical objects are believed to correspond to physical states of our brain and, as such, should ultimately be explicable by neuroscience in terms of biochemical laws. Stanislas Dehaene suggests that human brains come equipped at birth with an innate, wired-in ability for mathematics.[4] He postulates that, through evolution, the smallest integers (1, 2, 3 . . .) became hard-wired into the human nervous system, along with a crude ability to add and subtract. A similar position is defended by George Lakoff and Rafael Nunez, who seek to explain mathematics as a system of metaphors that ultimately derive from neural processes.[5] Penelope Maddy conjectures that our nervous system contains higher order assemblies that correspond to thoughts of particular sets.[6] She posits that our beliefs about sets and other mathematical entities come, not from Platonic ideal forms, but, rather, from certain physical events, such as the development of pathways in neural systems. Such evolutionary explanations seek to derive all our mathematical thoughts from purely physical connections between neurons."The same view expounded by W. S. Cooper's book "The Origin of Reason" which I have recommended. BrentI see some problems along this way. Let us consider the story with Newton laws in this context. Laplace was able to create a new mathematical theory that did not exist at Newton's time. What does it mean?He stood on the shoulders of Newton.That there was a gene mutation for time being between Newton and Laplace? Or that Nature has made natural neural networks in abundance already at ancient times and Newton just failed to employ full capabilities of his brain? Also let us take my experiment with two mathematicians, I have made now a nice picture to this end, see slide 26 http://embryogenesisexplained.com/files/presentations/Rudnyi2012.pdf The theory above means that Pi exist only when mathematicians' brains are running. Yet, it seems that a mathematical theory due to inexorable laws describes the experiment correctly even at the state when mathematicians are dead.You mean you have a mathematical model which agrees with your observations of an experiment, even though the guy that thought of the model is now dead. Why is that a problem. My grandfather was named "Isaac Newton" and that's a true description even though he's dead. Brent

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