On 08 Aug 2012, at 23:00, John Mikes wrote:
your reply is appreciable (I donot use the pun: remarkable and write
'remarks' to it);
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
On 08 Aug 2012, at 00:18, John Mikes wrote:
congrats to yur interjected question: "What does not exist then?"
It is cute.
If I really HAVE to reply: "The R e s t of the world". And if you
insist to spell it out, you just 'create' it. <G>
I appreciate your mostly agreeing words, one question though:
how can a machine (Loebian?) be curious? or unsatisfied?
Universal machine are confronted with many problems. Avoiding
looping, avoiding crashing, avoiding inconsistencies, avoiding
incorrectness. They have duties: adding themselves and multiplying
themselves, with all the relative troubles that result from the
impossible "simple" merging of the addition and multiplcations laws
(with the numbers: I could have taken abstraction and application
with the lambda terms instead).
The Löbian machine knows that she is universal, and so can grasp the
preceding paragraph, and get in that way even much more questions,
and she can discover even more sharply her abyssal ignorance.
Löbianity is the step where the universal machine knows that
whatever she could know more, that will only make her more ignorant
with respect to the unknown. Yet, the machine at that stage can also
intuit more and more the reason and necessity of that ignorance, and
with comp, study the approximate mathematical description of parts
JM: looks to me that Univ. Mach. is a fictional charater like Alice
in Wunderland, equipped with whatever you need to make it work. Like
(my) infinite complexity.
The difference is that once you agree on addition and multiplication,
you can prove the existence of universal machine, and you can bet that
you can implement them in the physical reality, as our concrete
physical personal computer, and cells, brain etc, illustrate.
somebody suggested to say 'organism' au lieu de machine, but it is
not a fair transformation.
Finally I am too ignorant to appreciate 'ontological' in my
worldview: in an everything that constantly changes it is hard to
see 'being' vs. 'becoming'.
But how can "everything" change? You can only change relatively to
I think that change is an experience from inside. It follows, I
think, from the hypothesis that we might survive through a computer
emulation (my working hypothesis).
The everything is the being, and the change, or the becoming, or the
creation and the annihilation, is how the everything looks from
inside, in amnesic state with respect of the "everything" somehow.
Universal machine are not necessarily just curious, they can be
anxious too. They want to know if there is a pilot in the plane and
a ground under their foot.
And then there is nothing a universal machine can't be more in love
than ... another universal machine. And then the tendency to
reproduce and multiply, in many directions, that they inherit from
the numbers and which leads to even more complexity and life, I
The arithmetical reality is full of life, populated by many sorts of
universal numbers, with many possible sort of relations, and this
put a sort of mess in the antic Platonia, and leads to transfinite
unboundable complexity indeed.
JM: intriguing idea about the 'change', indeed. I feel English
semantics in it (French is even worse: changer is really
"from..into") - what I understand as my non-Anglo 'change' is a
constant alteration of observables, some would put into the meaning
of 'life' or 'creation'.
But observable is an internal notion. Nobody can observe the
"Universe", by definition of "Universe".
From "inside"? a loose cannon: if I am observing something from
'outside of it' I still can see it change.
Relatively to what?
You may argue that I am still within a larger 'inside'.
Indeed. You see the point.
Sorry to get bugged down into semantical bickering.
You are welcome.
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