Hi Bruno Marchal IMHO Sorry, perhaps I am growing tired and grumpy, but the issue about about the lack of a T.... Logical truth has its uses, but it has no provision for self or feelings or indeed life, no meaning, no aesthetics, no morality, no intelligence, just the gears of logic. No Bach, no Beethoven, no Vermeer.

No sex. These are functions of the metaphorical right brain, logic being a function of the left brain. So to me logic it is like the shadows that the deluded men in Plato's cave thought was reality itself. Besides Truth, Beauty and Goodness have their roles to play in this shakey allegory called Life.. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/8/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-08, 05:43:55 Subject: Re: The poverty of computers On 08 Sep 2012, at 06:19, meekerdb wrote: > On 9/7/2012 8:43 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> Platonism (or mathematical realism) is the majority viewpoint of >> modern mathematicians. > > In a survey of mathematicians I know it is an even division. Of > course they are all methodological Platonists, but not necessarily > philosophical ones. > >> Computationalism (or functionalism) is the majority viewpoint of >> cognitive scientists and philosophers of mind. Thus the scientific >> consensus is that infinite (mathematical) truth > > Except mathematical truth is just a marker, T, whose value is > preserved by the rules of logic. Whether a proposition that has T > corresponds with any fact is another question. Be careful to distinguish a true sentence (like T) with the notion of truth or of arithmetical true sentence, which is not even definable in arithmetic, and can be meta-defined in some set theory or second order arithmetic, at the meta-level. God can be arithmetical truth, but God can't be just T. > >> is the self-existent cause and reason for our existence. > > That is very far from a scientific consensus. I'd say majority the > opinion among scientists who are philosophically inclined is that > mathematics and logic are languages in which we create models that > represent what we think about reality. This explains why there can > be contradictory mathematical models and even mutually inconsistent > sets of axioms and rules of inference. Yes, but this makes sense only for people agreeing on elementary arithmetical truth. If not, the notion of axioms and rules of inference don't make sense. Nobody serious disagree on elementary arithmetic. I have never seen someone doubting the meaning of (N, +, *), except philosophers. Bad philosophers, I would say, when they are in desperate needs to demolish some argument, or to look original or something. We need assess arithmetic to make sense of doubting arithmetic, and so, doubting arithmetic does not make sense, in fact. Bruno > >> Few people today have realized that this is inevitable conclusion >> of these two commonly held beliefs. > > Not only that a few people have rejected it. > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.