On 9/15/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
Faith is merely trust.  I could have faith in a doorknob.
But I wouldn't try faith in Satan.
Even the doorknob would work to some extent, for trust opens you
up to authority, to submission, and submission
is the meat and potatoes of salvation. It's the
bending over that does the work. In the case of salvation,
bending over to Jesus.

Hi Roger,

I do not wish to sink into Scholastic style arguments, but I am trying to make a point here. Faith must be anticipatory or it is not capable of being "knowledge of things unseen". If I where the one entity in the universe then it would not make any sense to confine "knowledge of things not seem" to a future tensed domain as anything that is beyond my direct reach would be in the domain defined by the "not seen", but we appear to live in a universe where I can communicate with the fellow around the corner with a radio and he can tell me all about that is happening beyond my local reach. Thus if we are trying to be logically consistent in our definitions, we have to restrict the domain of Faith to the common future of any that I might be able to communicate with; "not seen" means not seen to anyone that I can communicate with, no? =-O

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net>
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."

    ----- Receiving the following content -----
    *From:* Stephen P. King <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>
    *Receiver:* everything-list <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
    *Time:* 2012-09-14, 12:11:35
    *Subject:* Re: The poverty of computers

    On 9/14/2012 7:09 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
    Hi Craig Weinberg
    Faith can be expressed as a belief, but faith itself is inner
    trust, confidence, etc.

     1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
     2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based
        on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

    Dear Roger,

        But not just "anything" it is contained to cover only that
    which is possible in the future. Faith is forward projected
    belief. I have faith that the bridge can support my weight because
    it is possible to falsify that belief when I am actually crossing

    Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net>
    Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
    so that everything could function."

        ----- Receiving the following content -----
        *From:* Craig Weinberg <mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com>
        *Receiver:* everything-list
        *Time:* 2012-09-13, 13:21:50
        *Subject:* Re: Re: The poverty of computers

        On Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:43:39 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:

            Hi Bruno Marchal

            The shared part of religion (or
            science) is called belief(s).
                They are exclusively in the fom of words.
                For example words from the Bible, and the Creeds.

            The personal or private part of religion is called faith.
                It is not belief, for it is wordless, is more like
            trust or motivation.
                Religion trusts its creeds, science trust the laws of
            physics etc.

        It sounds like you are talking about the particular forms of
        religion though. In some other traditions, faith can be the
        public proclamation in words and belief is the privately
        expressed as wordless.





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