On 9/29/2012 10:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 29 Sep 2012, at 12:21, Stephen P. King wrote:HEY!It's nice to see other people noticing the same thing that I havebeen complaining about. Thank you, Brent!On 9/29/2012 3:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:I *can* know the exact position of an electron in my brain, evenif this will make me totally ignorant on its impulsions. I canknow its exact impulsion too, even if this will make me totallyignorant of its position.But that doesn't imply that the electron does not have a definiteposition and momentum; only that you cannot prepare an ensemble inwhich both values are sharp.OK. This Fourier relation between complementary observable is quitemysterious in the comp theory.How about that! Bruno, you might wish to read up a little onPontryagin duality, of which the Fourier relation is an example. Itis a relation between spaces. How do you get spaces in yournon-theory, Bruno??The result is that we have to explain geometry, analysis and physicsfrom numbers. It is constructive as it shows the unique method whichkeeps distinct and relate the different views, and the quanta/qualiadifferences. But the result is a problem, indeed: a problem inintensional arithmetic.

Hi Bruno,

`What ever means they are constructed, it is still a space that is`

`the end result. A space is simply "a*space*is aset`

`<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_%28mathematics%29>with some`

`addedstructure <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_structure>."`

In both case, the electron participate two different coherentcomputation leading to my computational state.Of course this is just "in principle", as in continuous classicalQM, we need to use distributions, and reasonable Fourier transforms.But at the fundamental level of the UD 'the electron' has somedefinite representation in each of infinitely many computations.The uncertainty comes from the many different computations. Right?Yes, and the fact that we cannot know which one bears us "here andnow". The QM indeterminacy is made into a particular first personcomp indeterminacy.Where is the "here and now" if not a localization in a physicalworld.Perhaps, but you need to define what you mean by physical worldwithout assuming a *primitive* physical world.

`I am OK with the idea that a physical world is that which can be`

`described by a Boolean Algebra in a "sharable way". The trick is the`

`"sharing". It order to share something there must be multiple entities`

`that can each participate in some way and that those entities are in`

`some way distinguishable from each other.`

This is defined as "centering" by Quine's /Propositional Objects/<http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40103900?uid=3739776&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101089247673>as discussed in Chalmers book, pg. 60-61...The state is well defined, as your state belongs to a computation.It is not well defined below your substitution level, but this isonly due to your ignorance on which computations you belong.Right. What I would generally refer to as 'my state' is aclassical state (since I don't experience Everett's many worlds).But I still don't understand, "Consciousness will make your brain,at the level below the substitution level, having some well definedstate, with an electron, for example, described with some preciseposition. Without consciousness there is no "material" brain at all. "How does consciousness "make a brain" or "make matter"? I thoughtyour theory was that both at made by computations. My intuition isthat, within your theory of comp, consciousness impliesconsciousness of matter and matter is a construct of consciousness;That's what I was saying.Really!??

`I believe that it was Brent that wrote: "My intuition is that,`

`within your theory of comp, consciousness implies consciousness of`

`matter and matter is a construct of consciousness; " and you wrote that`

`you agreed.`

so you can't have one without the other.Exactly. Not sure if we disagree on something here.What exactly are you agreeing about, Bruno? No consciousnesswithout matter? Ah, you think that numbers have intrinsicproperties... OK.Indeed. I think 17 is intrinsically a prime number in all possiblerealities.

`It is not a reality in a world that only has 16 objects in it. I`

`can come up with several other counter-examples in terms of finite`

`field, but that is overly belaboring a point.`

This is needed to define in an intrinsic way the non intrinsic,intensional properties of the relative number (machines). Beinguniversal, or simply being a code, or an address is not intrinsic, butcan be once we choose an initial Turing universal base.

`How do you distinguish one version of the code X from another Y`

`such that X interviews Y has a meaning?`

Bruno

-- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.