It's nice to see other people noticing the same thing that I have been complaining about. Thank you, Brent!

On 9/29/2012 3:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

I *can* know the exact position of an electron in my brain, even if this will make me totally ignorant on its impulsions. I can know its exact impulsion too, even if this will make me totally ignorant of its position.

But that doesn't imply that the electron does not have a definite position and momentum; only that you cannot prepare an ensemble in which both values are sharp.

OK. This Fourier relation between complementary observable is quite mysterious in the comp theory.

How about that! Bruno, you might wish to read up a little on Pontryagin duality, of which the Fourier relation is an example. It is a relation between spaces. How do you get spaces in your non-theory, Bruno?

In both case, the electron participate two different coherent computation leading to my computational state. Of course this is just "in principle", as in continuous classical QM, we need to use distributions, and reasonable Fourier transforms.

But at the fundamental level of the UD 'the electron' has some definite representation in each of infinitely many computations. The uncertainty comes from the many different computations. Right?

Yes, and the fact that we cannot know which one bears us "here and now". The QM indeterminacy is made into a particular first person comp indeterminacy.

Where is the "here and now" if not a localization in a physical world. This is defined as "centering" by Quine's /Propositional Objects/ <http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40103900?uid=3739776&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101089247673> as discussed in Chalmers book, pg. 60-61...

The state is well defined, as your state belongs to a computation. It is not well defined below your substitution level, but this is only due to your ignorance on which computations you belong.

Right. What I would generally refer to as 'my state' is a classical state (since I don't experience Everett's many worlds).

But I still don't understand, "Consciousness will make your brain, at the level below the substitution level, having some well defined state, with an electron, for example, described with some precise position. Without consciousness there is no "material" brain at all. "

How does consciousness "make a brain" or "make matter"? I thought your theory was that both at made by computations. My intuition is that, within your theory of comp, consciousness implies consciousness of matter and matter is a construct of consciousness;

That's what I was saying.


so you can't have one without the other.

Exactly. Not sure if we disagree on something here.

What exactly are you agreeing about, Bruno? No consciousness without matter? Ah, you think that numbers have intrinsic properties... OK.



You can "observe" yourself below the substitution result, but the detail of such observation are just not relevant for getting your computational state.



Of course, you will argue that this is what physics already describes, with QM. In that sense I am OK, but consciousness is still playing a role, even if it is not necessarily the seemingly magical role invoked by Craig.

Craig is not invoking any magic other than the fact that consciousness cannot be striped from what allows it to define itself and remain the same thing. It has content and that content is important. It is not just a hall of mirrors effect that we can collapse with Kleene. No, there is a physical tie in that cannot be ignored.




You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
For more options, visit this group at 

Reply via email to