On 10/5/2012 12:24 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net
Hi Stephen P. King
Many thanks, Stephan !
I should have known it before, but
double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories
of mind aren't afraid of using the word
Now all they have to do is find out
who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity !
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net>
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Stephen P. King
Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20
Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory
From the video
"Software of course, has no subjectivity...."
I dunno, when my computer crashes its synonymous to "I have crashed"
when the error is displayed. So in a sense, it asserts and perceives
its own crash, and if I can get to the log, I can see more
specifically what might have gone wrong, since the system is so
complex, that I can be pretty sure that no programmer predicted
specifically this particular kind of crash + how to optimize things
if/when possible after such.
Also, the video speaks of psilocin to make the argument that
descriptions of neural activity are not their experience, as Craig
Ironically enough, I would bet that the makers of this video have
NEVER tried psilocin or related compounds, as they make a later
statement in regards to subjectivity in animals "One side of the
correlation is unknowable, as the scientist cannot be the animal".
This stands in direct opposition to subjective experience of
DMT-related psychedelic experience, where it is relatively commonplace
to find experiential reports of people communicating with plants,
animals, and in the case of strong Ayahuasca dosages "becoming the
And the argument against "that's just brain distortion/hallucination
with no scientific usefulness" is laid out, in a bit of a dated
fashion, by "Cosmic Serpent" by Jeremy Narby. He takes the position,
that indigenous people in South America could not have amassed so many
natural remedies and herbal cures (that big pharma has been exploiting
so strongly, that every biologist is now suspected to be a bandit,
re-drafting laws of sample taking and demonizing biologists from the
west campaigns) without using DMT or some related plant-based compound
to aid in finding cures.
He asks the reader how convincing it is that for hundreds of
generations, the indigenous are finding these remedies out of the vast
set of toxic and plants irrelevant to human purposes, by
systematically applying trial and error? He offers other routes
towards this knowledge and sees parallels between genetics, DNA, and
indigenous descriptions of plant spirits to investigate how indigenous
people find, out of millions of different plant species, exactly the
right one, at the right dosage level, over and over again. Of course,
there must be some trial and error + dying, but his list of "precise
hits" is quite extensive. He suggests modestly, that the plants
subjectivity is accessible through psilocin or DMT related
experiences, or the indigenous people are just extremely lucky that
their hallucinations line-up with so many effective herbs, roots etc.
But this isn't needed: my plants tell me the rhythm at which they need
water, and if they're not doing to well, I can tell that subjectively,
they're not doing that well. And as time passes I get better in
interpreting WHY they are not feeling so well. I'm not so good a
listener; but as a musician, I have to make noise, so my plants are
patient, I hope. And you don't need psilocin to make these types of
communication, but it would probably help :)
I have had first hand experience of altered states and I agree with
your points here 100%. Roger's question remains in force: What is it
that the "subjectr" of the subjective? I conjecture that it is the
equivalent of a "center of mass" for the information/immaterial dual
aspect of the body. This requires that there is something equivalent to
the necessary requirements of a fixed point: some kind of set, closure
of that set, a transformation of the set and compactness.
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