Hi Stephen, Yeah, I was wandering there a bit. Just still not used to the irony of altered states being used in an argument that leaves unsaid the elephant in the room.
But I guess if we want something with set and point, this might also be your cup of tea, if you're not already familiar with it, and you permit empty sets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHS7fy-HJxU&feature=relmfu For PDFs: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Farxiv.org%2Fpdf%2F0810.4339&ei=NiVvUNOTJaKZ0QXl-ICwCA&usg=AFQjCNGQqvmeh3wBbDPrSdZIDLHQ3U0wJw&sig2=x8yxlI44JMU-T-4RwMTO-g http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.yale.edu%2Fpublications%2Ftechreports%2Ftr1419.pdf&ei=NiVvUNOTJaKZ0QXl-ICwCA&usg=AFQjCNGDlbsWmV2EE6KMcr-L4mL2FMcw2A&sig2=n2F1bfhQk3NTRk_cOL2S_g&cad=rja I think to Bruno, this would be "too rich" already. Mark On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 8:00 PM, Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net>wrote: > On 10/5/2012 12:24 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: > >> Hi Stephen P. King >> >> Many thanks, Stephan ! >> >> I should have known it before, but >> double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories >> of mind aren't afraid of using the word >> "subjectivity". >> >> Now all they have to do is find out >> who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity ! >> >> >> >> >> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net >> 10/5/2012 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >> >> >> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >> From: Stephen P. King >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20 >> Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ3Z-Y99wW0 >> >> -- >> Onward! >> >> Stephen >> >> > From the video > > "Software of course, has no subjectivity...." > > I dunno, when my computer crashes its synonymous to "I have crashed" when > the error is displayed. So in a sense, it asserts and perceives its own > crash, and if I can get to the log, I can see more specifically what might > have gone wrong, since the system is so complex, that I can be pretty sure > that no programmer predicted specifically this particular kind of crash + > how to optimize things if/when possible after such. > > Also, the video speaks of psilocin to make the argument that descriptions > of neural activity are not their experience, as Craig might say. > > Ironically enough, I would bet that the makers of this video have NEVER > tried psilocin or related compounds, as they make a later statement in > regards to subjectivity in animals "One side of the correlation is > unknowable, as the scientist cannot be the animal". This stands in direct > opposition to subjective experience of DMT-related psychedelic experience, > where it is relatively commonplace to find experiential reports of people > communicating with plants, animals, and in the case of strong Ayahuasca > dosages "becoming the animal" subjectively. > > And the argument against "that's just brain distortion/hallucination with > no scientific usefulness" is laid out, in a bit of a dated fashion, by > "Cosmic Serpent" by Jeremy Narby. He takes the position, that indigenous > people in South America could not have amassed so many natural remedies and > herbal cures (that big pharma has been exploiting so strongly, that every > biologist is now suspected to be a bandit, re-drafting laws of sample > taking and demonizing biologists from the west campaigns) without using DMT > or some related plant-based compound to aid in finding cures. > > He asks the reader how convincing it is that for hundreds of generations, > the indigenous are finding these remedies out of the vast set of toxic and > plants irrelevant to human purposes, by systematically applying trial and > error? He offers other routes towards this knowledge and sees parallels > between genetics, DNA, and indigenous descriptions of plant spirits to > investigate how indigenous people find, out of millions of different plant > species, exactly the right one, at the right dosage level, over and over > again. Of course, there must be some trial and error + dying, but his list > of "precise hits" is quite extensive. He suggests modestly, that the plants > subjectivity is accessible through psilocin or DMT related experiences, or > the indigenous people are just extremely lucky that their hallucinations > line-up with so many effective herbs, roots etc. > > But this isn't needed: my plants tell me the rhythm at which they need > water, and if they're not doing to well, I can tell that subjectively, > they're not doing that well. And as time passes I get better in > interpreting WHY they are not feeling so well. I'm not so good a listener; > but as a musician, I have to make noise, so my plants are patient, I hope. > And you don't need psilocin to make these types of communication, but it > would probably help :) > > m > > > > Hi Cowboy! > > I have had first hand experience of altered states and I agree with > your points here 100%. Roger's question remains in force: What is it that > the "subjectr" of the subjective? I conjecture that it is the equivalent of > a "center of mass" for the information/immaterial dual aspect of the body. > This requires that there is something equivalent to the necessary > requirements of a fixed point: some kind of set, closure of that set, a > transformation of the set and compactness. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-point_theorems_in_infinite-dimensional_spaces > > -- > Onward! > > Stephen > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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