Yeah, I was wandering there a bit. Just still not used to the irony of
altered states being used in an argument that leaves unsaid the elephant in
But I guess if we want something with set and point, this might also be
your cup of tea, if you're not already familiar with it, and you permit
I think to Bruno, this would be "too rich" already.
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 8:00 PM, Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net>wrote:
> On 10/5/2012 12:24 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Hi Stephen P. King
>> Many thanks, Stephan !
>> I should have known it before, but
>> double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories
>> of mind aren't afraid of using the word
>> Now all they have to do is find out
>> who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity !
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> From: Stephen P. King
>> Receiver: everything-list
>> Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20
>> Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory
> From the video
> "Software of course, has no subjectivity...."
> I dunno, when my computer crashes its synonymous to "I have crashed" when
> the error is displayed. So in a sense, it asserts and perceives its own
> crash, and if I can get to the log, I can see more specifically what might
> have gone wrong, since the system is so complex, that I can be pretty sure
> that no programmer predicted specifically this particular kind of crash +
> how to optimize things if/when possible after such.
> Also, the video speaks of psilocin to make the argument that descriptions
> of neural activity are not their experience, as Craig might say.
> Ironically enough, I would bet that the makers of this video have NEVER
> tried psilocin or related compounds, as they make a later statement in
> regards to subjectivity in animals "One side of the correlation is
> unknowable, as the scientist cannot be the animal". This stands in direct
> opposition to subjective experience of DMT-related psychedelic experience,
> where it is relatively commonplace to find experiential reports of people
> communicating with plants, animals, and in the case of strong Ayahuasca
> dosages "becoming the animal" subjectively.
> And the argument against "that's just brain distortion/hallucination with
> no scientific usefulness" is laid out, in a bit of a dated fashion, by
> "Cosmic Serpent" by Jeremy Narby. He takes the position, that indigenous
> people in South America could not have amassed so many natural remedies and
> herbal cures (that big pharma has been exploiting so strongly, that every
> biologist is now suspected to be a bandit, re-drafting laws of sample
> taking and demonizing biologists from the west campaigns) without using DMT
> or some related plant-based compound to aid in finding cures.
> He asks the reader how convincing it is that for hundreds of generations,
> the indigenous are finding these remedies out of the vast set of toxic and
> plants irrelevant to human purposes, by systematically applying trial and
> error? He offers other routes towards this knowledge and sees parallels
> between genetics, DNA, and indigenous descriptions of plant spirits to
> investigate how indigenous people find, out of millions of different plant
> species, exactly the right one, at the right dosage level, over and over
> again. Of course, there must be some trial and error + dying, but his list
> of "precise hits" is quite extensive. He suggests modestly, that the plants
> subjectivity is accessible through psilocin or DMT related experiences, or
> the indigenous people are just extremely lucky that their hallucinations
> line-up with so many effective herbs, roots etc.
> But this isn't needed: my plants tell me the rhythm at which they need
> water, and if they're not doing to well, I can tell that subjectively,
> they're not doing that well. And as time passes I get better in
> interpreting WHY they are not feeling so well. I'm not so good a listener;
> but as a musician, I have to make noise, so my plants are patient, I hope.
> And you don't need psilocin to make these types of communication, but it
> would probably help :)
> Hi Cowboy!
> I have had first hand experience of altered states and I agree with
> your points here 100%. Roger's question remains in force: What is it that
> the "subjectr" of the subjective? I conjecture that it is the equivalent of
> a "center of mass" for the information/immaterial dual aspect of the body.
> This requires that there is something equivalent to the necessary
> requirements of a fixed point: some kind of set, closure of that set, a
> transformation of the set and compactness.
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To post to this group, send email to email@example.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> For more options, visit this group at
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
For more options, visit this group at