On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:27:51 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> On 16 Oct 2012, at 14:29, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense.
> That is a form of idealism. 
> It pre"suppose sense, so I find it very poor as I am interested in 
> understanding sense (and matter).

You already are sense and matter. There is no better way to understand it. 
Sense is not ideal, it is concretely real - all around us, within us. If I 
want to compute something, I have to count. If it's a complex computation, 
I need to enslave an inanimate object - because it's so incredibly 
antithetical to our nature. Counting is what we do to put ourselves to 
sleep, to hypnotize. Counting blows out the candle of 1p sense to reveal 
the shadows cast between 1p experiences.


> Withc omp we pressuppose only numbers and +, and *, and define computation 
> in that theory, then the coupling consciousness+material-realities emerges 
> naturally in a testable manner.

To quote you - "That is a form of idealism." It pre-supposes arithmetic 
which I see clearly as a kind of sense - a feeling of augmentation or 
meta-augmentation in any particular context. It makes it completely 
circular as you smuggle consciousness in to begin with, but you don't 
recognize or acknowledge that you do. Instead of + and * just start with 
the entire canon of mathematics in the last 2000 years - what difference 
does it make? There is no more explanation for the appearance of * in the 
universe than there is for primitive matter. What's *? It's a sense-making 
relationship among concretely experienced ideas. It is a psychological 
mapping, not a causally efficacious metaphysical principle.

> If you could have computation without sense, then there would be no 
> consciousness. 
> Assuming that we are infinite, with an infinity not recoverable by the 
> first person indeterminacy.

I don't think I'm assuming anything. I'm saying that if you can drive a bus 
down the street without a 50 foot tall inflatable flamingo tied to the 
roof, then producing giant inflatable birds are probably not going to be a 
priority in a universe made of bus drivers.


> Bruno

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