On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:54:10 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> > Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you 
> could 
> > have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. 
> > Craig 
> > 
> Could you provide a link where you more fully explain what sense is 
> and how it relates to comp and consciousness? You probably already 
> have. But I missed it. 
>

This post http://s33light.org/post/24159233874 talks about why I use the 
word sense. I am saying that the only thing that the universe can be 
reduced to which is irreducible is sense, and by that I really mean sense 
in every sense, but in particular sensation, intuition, subjective feeling, 
pattern recognition, and categorization or discernment.

Craig
 

> Richard 
> > 
> > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:50:17 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex 
> computations 
> >> ? 
> >> 
> >> The short answer is that I am proposing that : 
> >> 
> >> 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position 
> >> that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. 
> >> 
> >> 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make 
> >> such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the 
> >> range of computabilitlity.  Instead, it exposes these halted 
> >> upward-directed 
> >> calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed 
> platonic 
> >> reason, 
> >> the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know 
> >> enough 
> >> mathematics to be more specific. 
> >> 
> >> If you would like a more complete discussion, read below. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ======================================================= 
> >> A MORE COMPLETE ANSWER: 
> >> Contemporary thinking on consciousness is that it is an "emergent 
> >> property" 
> >> of computational complexity among neurons. This raises some questions: 
> >> 
> >> A. Is the emergence of consciouness simply a another name for Penrose's 
> >> condition of non-computability ? 
> >> 
> >> 
> http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/presentations/whatisconsciousness.html 
> >> 
> >> "Conventional explanations portray consciousness as an emergent 
> property 
> >> of classical 
> >> computer-like activities in the brain's neural networks. 
> >> The prevailing views among scientists in this camp are that 
> >> 
> >> 1) patterns of neural network activities correlate with mental states, 
> >> 2) synchronous network oscillations in thalamus and cerebral cortex 
> >> temporally bind information, 
> >> and 
> >> 3) consciousness emerges as a novel property of computational 
> complexity 
> >> among neurons." 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> B. Or is there another way to look at this emergence ? 
> >> 
> >> Now my understanding of "emergent properties" is that they appear or 
> >> emerge through looking at a phenomenon 
> >> at a lower degree of magnification "from above. " Thus sociology is an 
> >> emergent property of 
> >> the behavior of many minds. 
> >> 
> >> IMHO "from above" means looking downward from Platonia. From a wiser 
> >> position. 
> >> 
> >> Penrose seems to take take two views of Platonia: 
> >> 
> >> http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Yasue.html 
> >> 
> >> One is his belief that there is a realm of non-computability, 
> presumably 
> >> that of Platonia as experienced. 
> >> All art and insight comes from such an experience. 
> >> 
> >> On the other hand, if I am not mistaken, Penrose seems to believe that 
> the 
> >> universe is made up of 
> >> quantum "spin networks", which presumably can model even the most 
> complex 
> >> entities. 
> >> He does not seem to deny that the "non-computational" calculations 
> belong 
> >> to the realm 
> >> of spin networks. 
> >> 
> >> This casts some doubt on his belief in the possibility of 
> >> non-computability, 
> >> and may even allow his spin networks, which are presumably complete, 
> >> to escape intact from Godel's incompleteness limitation. 
> >> 
> >> Instead, I propose the following: 
> >> 
> >> 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position 
> >> that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. 
> >> 
> >> 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make 
> >> such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the 
> >> range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted 
> >> upward-directed 
> >> calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed 
> platonic 
> >> reason, 
> >> the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know 
> >> enough 
> >> mathematics to be more specific. 
> >> ================================================================= 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 
> >> 10/16/2012 
> >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> > 
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