On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:54:10 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg > <[email protected]<javascript:>> > wrote: > > Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you > could > > have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. > > Craig > > > Could you provide a link where you more fully explain what sense is > and how it relates to comp and consciousness? You probably already > have. But I missed it. >
This post http://s33light.org/post/24159233874 talks about why I use the word sense. I am saying that the only thing that the universe can be reduced to which is irreducible is sense, and by that I really mean sense in every sense, but in particular sensation, intuition, subjective feeling, pattern recognition, and categorization or discernment. Craig > Richard > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:50:17 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: > >> > >> Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex > computations > >> ? > >> > >> The short answer is that I am proposing that : > >> > >> 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position > >> that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. > >> > >> 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make > >> such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the > >> range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted > >> upward-directed > >> calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed > platonic > >> reason, > >> the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know > >> enough > >> mathematics to be more specific. > >> > >> If you would like a more complete discussion, read below. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ======================================================= > >> A MORE COMPLETE ANSWER: > >> Contemporary thinking on consciousness is that it is an "emergent > >> property" > >> of computational complexity among neurons. This raises some questions: > >> > >> A. Is the emergence of consciouness simply a another name for Penrose's > >> condition of non-computability ? > >> > >> > http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/presentations/whatisconsciousness.html > >> > >> "Conventional explanations portray consciousness as an emergent > property > >> of classical > >> computer-like activities in the brain's neural networks. > >> The prevailing views among scientists in this camp are that > >> > >> 1) patterns of neural network activities correlate with mental states, > >> 2) synchronous network oscillations in thalamus and cerebral cortex > >> temporally bind information, > >> and > >> 3) consciousness emerges as a novel property of computational > complexity > >> among neurons." > >> > >> > >> > >> B. Or is there another way to look at this emergence ? > >> > >> Now my understanding of "emergent properties" is that they appear or > >> emerge through looking at a phenomenon > >> at a lower degree of magnification "from above. " Thus sociology is an > >> emergent property of > >> the behavior of many minds. > >> > >> IMHO "from above" means looking downward from Platonia. From a wiser > >> position. > >> > >> Penrose seems to take take two views of Platonia: > >> > >> http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Yasue.html > >> > >> One is his belief that there is a realm of non-computability, > presumably > >> that of Platonia as experienced. > >> All art and insight comes from such an experience. > >> > >> On the other hand, if I am not mistaken, Penrose seems to believe that > the > >> universe is made up of > >> quantum "spin networks", which presumably can model even the most > complex > >> entities. > >> He does not seem to deny that the "non-computational" calculations > belong > >> to the realm > >> of spin networks. > >> > >> This casts some doubt on his belief in the possibility of > >> non-computability, > >> and may even allow his spin networks, which are presumably complete, > >> to escape intact from Godel's incompleteness limitation. > >> > >> Instead, I propose the following: > >> > >> 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position > >> that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. > >> > >> 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make > >> such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the > >> range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted > >> upward-directed > >> calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed > platonic > >> reason, > >> the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know > >> enough > >> mathematics to be more specific. > >> ================================================================= > >> > >> > >> > >> Roger Clough, [email protected] > >> 10/16/2012 > >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/teYzjZJLGQoJ. > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected]<javascript:>. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected] <javascript:>. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/c4XDACUXthAJ. 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