On 10/24/2012 6:27 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:04 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com
    <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote

        > I think you are missing something.  It is a problem that I noticed 
watching the movie "The Prestige"

    In my opinion "The Prestige" is the best movie made in the last 10 years, 
and this
    is one of those rare instances where the movie was better than the book. 
Before the
    movie back in 1996 I wrote a short scenario that had somewhat similar 
themes, this
    is part of it:

    " About a year ago I started building a matter duplicating machine. It 
could  find
    the position and velocity of every atom in a human being to the limit 
imposed by
    Heisenberg's law. It then used this information to construct a copy and it 
does it
    all in a fraction of a second and without harming the original in any way. 
You may
    be surprised that I was able to build such a complicated machine, but you 
    be if you knew how good I am with my hands. The birdhouse I made is simply 
    and I have all the latest tools from Sears.

    I was a little nervous but I decided to test the machine by duplicating 
myself. The
    day before yesterday I walked into the chamber, it filled with smoke (damn 
    radio shack transformers) there was a flash of light, and then 3 feet to my 
left was
    a man who looked exactly like me. It was at that instant that the full 
    of the terrible thing I did hit me. I yelled "This is monstrous, there can 
only be
    one of me", my copy yelled exactly the same thing. I thought he was trying 
to mock
    me, so I reached for my 44 magnum that I always carry with me (I wonder why 
    think I'm strange) and pointed it at my double. I noted with alarm that the 
    also had a gun and he was pointing it at me. I shouted "you don't have the 
guts to
    pull the trigger, but I do". Again he mimicked my words and did so in 
    synchronization, this made me even more angry and I pulled the trigger, he 
did too.
    My gun went off but due to a random quantum fluctuation his gun jammed. I 
buried him
    in my back yard.

    Now that my anger has cooled and I can think more clearly I've had  some 
pangs of
    guilt about killing a living creature, but that's not what really torments 
me. How
    do I know I'm not the copy? I feel exactly the same as before, but would a 
copy feel
    different? Actually there is a way to be certain, I have a video tape of 
the entire
    experiment. My memory is  that the copy first appeared 3 feet to my LEFT, 
(if I had
    arranged things so he appeared 3 feet in front of me face to face things 
would have
    been more symmetrical, like looking in a mirror), if the tape shows the 
    walking into the chamber and the copy materializing 3 feet to his RIGHT, 
then I
    would know that I am the copy. But I'm afraid to look at the tape, should I 
be? If I
    found out I was the copy what should I do? I suppose I should morn the 
death of John
    Clark, but how can I, I'm not dead. If I am the copy would that mean that I 
have no
    real past and my life is meaningless? Is it important, or should I just 
burn the
    tape and forget all about it?"

Nice story.  It reminds me of this little puzzle (I forgot where I heard it):

You will be placed into a room with an exact clone of yourself and you will be given a gun. If you shoot your clone you can leave that room and everything will be fine. Or, if you shoot yourself your clone will be allowed to leave the room and will be given $1,000,000. What do you do? If you value the money and ascribe to certain philosophical schools, the logical decision would be to shoot yourself rather than shooting the clone.

        > you probably believe there is some stream of thoughts/consciousness 
that you
        identify with.

    I can't conceive of anyone disagreeing with that.

        > You further believe that these thoughts and consciousness are 
produced by some
        activity of your brain.


        > Unlike Craig, you believe that whatever horrible injury you suffered, 
even if
        every atom in your body were separated from every other atom, in 
principle you
        could be put back together, and if the atoms are put back just right, 
you will
        be removed and alive and well, and conscious again.


        > Further, you probably believe it doesn't matter if we even re-use the 
        atoms or not, since atoms of the same elements and isotopes are 


        > We could take apart your current atoms, then put you back together 
with atoms
        from a different pile and your consciousness would continue right where 
it left
        off (from before you were obliterated).


        It would be as if a simulation of your brain were running on a VM, we 
paused the
        VM, moved it to a different physical computer and then resumed it.  
From your
        perspective inside, there was no interruption, yet your physical 
incarnation and
        location has changed.


        > what happens to your consciousness when duplicated?

    When what is duplicated? Adjectives, like consciousness or Jason Resch, do 
    duplicate in the same way that nouns, like brains, do. If I exactly 
duplicate a iPod
    playing loud music the iPod is duplicated but the adjective "loud" is not
    duplicated, but if I then change the loudness level on one of them but not 
the other
    then the two differentiate. In the same way If I exactly duplicate you and 
a cat as
    you consciously look at the cat then your body and brain are duplicated but 
    adjective describing what the brain is doing, consciousness, is not 
    however if I then change one cat but not the other then the conscious 
experience and
    memories formed by observing the cat will be different and the two of you 
will no
    longer be each other but both will be Jason Resch.

To clarify, I mean if the substrate of your consciousness is duplicated, then the singular mind "John Clark" will have multiple manifestations. Destroying one of the manifestations will not destroy John Clark so long as there is at least one surviving manifestation. What numerous scientific theories suggest (Eternal Inflation, Many Worlds, Mathematical Realism, String Theory Landscape to name a few) is that each of us has an infinite number of manifestations, in whatever possible state we might enter.

Thus we are all immortal, survive everything, consciousness never ends, our states are interlinked and can intersect, thus we reincarnate, we resurrect to afterlives in far away places and different universes and realms, we also sometimes awaken and find ourselves to be an omega point mind with the memories of 10^10^10 life times, exploring all possibilities of reality and consciousness before jumping in to the next life. Seeing the unity in two manifestations of the same minds leads to seeing unity among all minds. Wait long enough and you will experience the lives of every person you ever meet, and all the ones you haven't met too.

Except I don't remember any of that, only this life (and not much of it) and I'm not experiencing it now - so if it's being experienced it's not by me and there's something wrong with your hypothesis.

        > Initially, the sensory input to the two duplicates could be the same, 
and in a
        sense they are still the same mind, just with two instances

    Two identical minds are not "in a sense" the same mind they ARE the same 
mind period.


Well two identical experiences are the same experience. But if a mind is a sequence of experiences, then two minds could share an experience but be in different sequences otherwise.

        > but then something interesting happens once different input is fed to 
the two
        instances: they split.

    Yes, now let me tell you of a thought experiment of my own.

    An exact duplicate of the earth, and it's entire ecosystem, is created a 
    light years away. The duplicate world would need some sort of feedback 
mechanism to
    keep the worlds in synchronization, non linear effects would amplify tiny
    variations, even quantum fluctuations, into big differences, but this is a 
    experiment so who cares.

(If the universe is infinitely big, then there is no need to worry about keeping the two worlds in sync, as there will an infinite number of worlds intersecting that same quantum state of the entire planet and even galaxy. QM already suggests that this is the kind of world we inhabit.)

    In the first two cases below the results would vary according to 
    remember there's a lot of illogic even in the best of us.

    1) I know all about the duplicate world and you put a 44 magnum to my head 
and tell
    me that in ten seconds you will blow my brains out. Am I concerned? You bet 
I am
    because I know that your double is holding an identical gun to the head of 
my double
    and making an identical threat.

    2) I find out that for the first time since the Big Bang the worlds will 
diverge, in
    10 seconds you will put a bullet in my head but my double will be spared. 
Am I
    concerned? Yes, and angry as well, in times of intense stress nobody is 
very logical.

Also, even if we always survive from a first-person perspective, there are things that might decrease our measure and thus it could be said that the "universal soul" who experiences everything will experience being "John Clark" less frequently.

    My double is no longer exact because I am going through a traumatic 
experience and
    my double is not. I'd be looking at that huge gun and wondering what it 
will be like
    when it goes off and if death will really be instantaneous. I'd be 
wondering if my
    philosophy was really as sound as I thought it was and I'd also be 
wondering why I
    get the bullet and not my double and cursing the unfairness of it all. My 
    double would be thinking "it's a shame about that other fellow but I'm glad 
it's not

Imagine if you and your double drew straws and one would be tortured and the other released. The released one might conclude "I sure am glad I wasn't tortured", but is the one who was tortured any better off than if he himself had been tortured, but then had the memories and all traces of that punishment erased from his body? The experience still happened, that you don't remember it from your current perspective does not mean it didn't happen. We can make similar problems with duplicates and committing crimes. If you had a perfectly identical twin (same memories and everything) but your twin committed murder, most would say only the twin who committed that murder should be punished, but what if after committing the murder both you and your twin have your brains reset to the period right before your minds diverged, now you and your twin are perfectly identical again, does that wash away his guilt? Should he still be punished? If so, why punish one and not the other when they are both identical?

The purpose of punishment is social. So we punish one or the other so that people don't suppose they can get away with murder by just resetting themselves to "innocent". It doesn't matter which one we punish since they are ex hypothesi identical (and each one is equally likely to kill again).

Are you not in a sense, also punishing the innocent one (who now has a 50/50% of finding himself diverging to experience the life in prison).

    3) I know nothing about the duplicate world, a gun is at both our heads and 
we both
    are convinced we're going to die. One gun goes off, making a hell of a 
mess, but the
    other gun, for inexplicable reasons misfires. In this case NOBODY died and 
    for undergoing a terrifying experience I am completely unharmed. The real 
    part is that I don't even have to clean up the mess.

    The bottom line is we don't have thoughts and emotions, we are thoughts and
    emotions, and the idea that the particular hardware that is rendering them 
    their meaning is as crazy as my computer making the meaning of your post 
    from what it was on yours.

What will your next thought or emotion be? Answering that question depends on the goings on of things a trillion light years away, a million years in the future, and even things outside this physical universe.

Or that's just a fancy way of saying QM includes randomness.


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