On Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:57:34 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
> Good points. The contrast is usually qualia-v-quanta. I think color can
> be communicated
> and we have an "RGB" language for doing so that makes it more quanta than
That doesn't work. RGB coordinates do not help a blind person visualize
Red. What we have is a model for the producing optical stimulation that is
typically associated with color perception. By contrast, a description of
an object as being at a particular longitude and latitude on Earth will be
valid for any body which can navigate public space.
> extending your point to Schrodinger, if you're a wine connoisseur you have
> a language for
> communicating the taste of wine. Most of us don't speak it, but most
> people don't speak
> differential equations either. But those are all things that can be
> shared. The pain of
> a headache generally can't be perceived by two different people. But
> there are
> experiments that use small electric shocks to try to produce objective
> scales of pain. So
> I think you are right that it is a matter of having developed the
> language; I just don't
> think color is the best example.
This is a total non-starter. You cannot make a brick feel pain by using the
I did a post today on perception which might help
In short, qualia is a continuum of private and public significance. The
more a particular phenomenon has to to with position and distance, the more
public it is. Simple as that.
> On 10/25/2012 6:11 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
> > I agree.
> > is there something that can be perceived that is not qualia? Itï¿½s
> > less qualia the shape and location of a circle in ha sheet of paper
> > than its color?.The fact that the position and radius of the circle
> > can be measured and communicated does not change the fact that they
> > produce a subjective perception. so they are also qualia. Then the
> > question becomes why some qualia are communicable (phenomena) and
> > others do not? It may be because shape and position involve a more
> > basic form of processing and the color processing is more complicated?
> > O is because shape and position processing evolved to be communicable
> > quantitatively between humans, while color had no evolutionary
> > pressure to be a quantitative and communicable ?
> > If everithig perceived is qualia, then the question is the opposite.
> > Instead of ï¿½what is qualia under a materialist stance?, the question
> > is why some qualia are measurable and comunicable in a mentalist
> > stance, where every perception is in the mind, including the
> > perception that I have a head with a brain?
> >> Dennett and others on qualia
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#Daniel_Dennett
> >> 1) Schroedinger on qualia.
> >> "Examples of qualia are the pain of a headache, the taste of wine, the
> experience of taking a recreational drug,
> >> or the perceived redness of an evening sky. Daniel Dennett writes that
> qualia is "an unfamiliar term for
> >> something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways
> things seem to us." Erwin Schrï¿½dinger,
> >> the famous physicist, had this counter-materialist take: "The sensation
> of colour cannot be accounted for by
> >> the physicist's objective picture of light-waves. Could the
> physiologist account for it, if he had fuller
> >> knowledge than he has of the processes in
> >> the retina and the nervous processes set up by them in the optical
> nerve bundles and in the brain? I do not think so." 
> >> The importance of qualia in philosophy of mind comes largely from the
> fact that they are seen as posing a
> >> fundamental problem for materialist explanations of the mind-body
> problem. Much of the debate over their
> >> importance hinges on the definition of the term that is used,
> >> as various philosophers emphasize or deny the existence of certain
> features of qualia. As such,
> >> the nature and existence of qualia are controversial.
> >> 2) Dennett on qualia
> >> "In Consciousness Explained (1991) and "Quining Qualia" (1988),
> Daniel Dennett offers an argument against qualia that attempts to
> >> show that the above definition breaks down when one tries to make a
> practical application of it. In a series of thought experiments,
> >> which he calls "intuition pumps," he brings qualia into the world of
> neurosurgery, clinical psychology, and psychological experimentation.
> >> His argument attempts to show that, once the concept of qualia is so
> imported, it turns out that we can either make no use of it in the
> >> situation in question, or that the questions posed by the introduction
> of qualia are unanswerable precisely because of the special
> >> properties defined for qualia."
> >> Is this the height of arrogance or what ? Dennett essentially says
> >> that qualia do not exist because he cannot explain them.
> >> 3) The Nagel argument. The definition of qualia is not what they are,
> but what they do..
> >> what role they play ion consciusness. On the same page as above,
> >> The "What's it like to be?" argument
> >> Main article: Subjective character of experience
> >> Although it does not actually mention the word "qualia," Thomas Nagel's
> >> paper What Is it Like to Be a Bat? is often cited in debates over
> >> Nagel argues that consciousness has an essentially subjective
> character, a
> >> what-it-is-like aspect. He states that "an organism has conscious
> mental states if and only i
> >> if there is something that it is like to be that organism ï¿½ something
> it is like for the organism."
> >> Nagel also suggests that the subjective
> >> aspect of the mind may not ever be sufficiently accounted for by the
> objective methods of
> >> reductionistic science (materialism). He claims that "[i]f we
> acknowledge that a physical theory of mind
> >> must account for the subjective character of experience, we must
> admit that no presently
> >> available conception gives us a clue how this could be done."
> Furthermore, he states that
> >> "it seems unlikely that any physical theory of mind can be contemplated
> >> until more thought has been given to the general problem of subjective
> and objective."
> >> 4) The zombie argument (from the link already given)
> >> The zombie argument
> >> Main article: Philosophical zombie
> >> " A similar argument holds that it is conceivable that there could be
> physical duplicates of people,
> >> called "zombies," without any qualia at all. These "zombies" would
> demonstrate outward behavior
> >> precisely similar to that of a normal human, but would not have a
> subjective phenomenology.
> >> It is worth noting that a necessary condition for the possibility of
> philosophical zombies is that
> >> there be no specific part or parts of the brain that directly give rise
> to qualiaï¿½the zombie can only
> >> exist if subjective consciousness is causally separate from the
> physical brain."
> >> 10/25/2012
> >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
> >> --
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