Hi Alberto G. Corona  

Outside of spacetime there are no physical causes or effects,
but there are mental causes and effects. Materialism has
no way of dealing with these, but Idealism (such as with
Plato, Leibniz) does. No physical forces are involved, 
at least causally, but actions can occur "as if" such 
forces are involved.

Suppose you are thirsty and want to lift a glass of water and
drink from it. Leibniz would explain what happens as follows.
In L's Idealistic metaphysics, you are represented mentally as a
monad (an idea). In each monad are two registers, one called
"appetites", which are what you want to do, and one called
"perceptions", which are your indirect perceptions, since
monads have no windows to see out. These are what
you would perceive, could you actually see,  from your 
perspective, of all of the rest of the universe of monads. 
They are provided instantly and instantly updated
by the supreme monad (the only monad that can actually
see and act).

In this case, the supreme monad sees your desire
to lift the glass, then adjusts your perception to
see youself lifting the glass and drinking. To those
outside, it would appear as if you had normally lifted
the glass and drank from it. 

Such mentally cause and effect actions appear
"as if" you had done them physically-- as indeed
you had, except the actual cause came from the
supreme monad outside of you, using only the idea
of lifting to effect the action. 
    




[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
12/10/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 

----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Alberto G. Corona  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-12-09, 05:19:48 
Subject: Re: The two wrong paths of modern cognitive science 


Outside of the mathematical manifold ?( that space-time is), there are no 
causes nor effects. Coordination becomes a consequence of his mathematical 
description of the manifold (+ the initial conditions). ? 


But a creature from inside spacetime, its mind perceive causes, effects, is's, 
oughts, natural selection, teleology conflict of interests, properties, 
substances, persons, cars, love death, space, time, entropy, macroscopical 
irreversible phisical laws, electrons, protons etc 



2012/12/8 Telmo Menezes  



On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Roger Clough  wrote: 

Hi Stephen P. King  
? 
Processes still have to have overall coordination to prevent 
collisions, keep oil and water separate. 


No they don't. The separation of oil and water is just the macroscopic outcome 
of local interactions between molecules with no overall coordination 
whatsoever. 


OK. But Roger was perhaps referring to the laws making those interaction 
occurring, the thing which, in a way or another implement those laws, I am not 
sure ... 




Fair enough. The reason why I dislike the term "overall coordination" in this 
case is that it is a loaded term. To me it implies intelligent control. Of 
course intelligence is a mushy concept in itself, so we are thrown into a world 
of fuzzy concepts and start to lose meaning. 
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--  
Alberto. 

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