Hi Bruno I forgot to add the most important corollary to my discuission of truth as being multifarious--- that of choice. Choice of belief. Or faith. If there are many forms of truth, depending on how they are defined, but at the same time you must at least hang on to one form of truth to navigate through the world, then you choose the one, for whatever reason, that seems to be "best". The best guide to wherever you want to go.

To me, the Word is the best choice, warts and all. But that's necessarily a personal view. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/13/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Roger Clough Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-13, 08:06:01 Subject: the truth of science and the truth of religion Hi Bruno Marchal As an aside, my resistance to the idea that there is only one truth comes from partisans claiming that their idea of truth is the only one. For example, atheists claim that God cannot exist because that existence is scientifically unproveable. I agree. Instead, as a Christian, I believe that the Word is the truth that God has revealed of himself, which is also a definition of Jesus. But that dioes not mean that spiritual truth can explain evolution or the Big Bang. So I have no conflicts with science as long as I keep in mind what kind of truth is referred to. In the theory of chakras truth is the chakra near the vocal chords, meaning that truth is in words. Or communicable truth is in words, but the heart knows many truths solipsistically that cannot be accurately be communicable or proveable. That being the case, and if the Kingdom of God is within us, the One can provide us individually with personal truths, such as my identity or memory, which I suggest are only true for me, giving another branch of the necessary truths besides those of logic. Which would be the wordless truths of Goodness and of Beauty. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/13/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-13, 04:54:23 Subject: Re: truth vs reality On 12 Dec 2012, at 19:54, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Bruno Marchal > > I hate to be a spoiler, but, being a pragmatist and nominalist, > to me, the word "truth" is a stumbling block and a red herring. > To me, the One contains many types of truth, differing > according to their definitions. Well, all the hypostases comes from the one, so this makes sense. > > To me, the word "real" would be a better one, and > to a follower of Leibniz such as I am, only each monad is > real and nothing else (physical things aren't real). This is coherent with identifying the monads with the numbers, at least when coupled with some universal number (they become programs relatively to that universal number/supreme monad). > And > there being an infinitely different set of monads, each of which > keeps changing, there are an infinite set (actually, a "dust") of > continually changing reals, each real being a substance > of one part. OK. Bruno > > > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 12/12/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-12-12, 12:16:23 > Subject: Re: How mathematical truth might enter our universe > > > On 12 Dec 2012, at 17:00, Jason Resch wrote: > >> All, >> >> One of the questions in mathematics is where does mathematical truth >> come from, if it exists platonically, how does it manifest >> physically (e.g. as the utterances of mathematicians). > > I could explain, but it can be long, that it is impossible to explain > where the natural numbers come from, or where the Fortran programs > come from, of were the GoL comes from. > > Now if you assume the natural numbers, and the + and x laws, then I > can prove the existence of the Fortran programs, and of GoL, etc. > > if you assume GoL, I can prove the existence of the numbers, etc. > > So the numbers, or anything Turing equivalent are mysterious. It is > the least that we have to assume to get anything capable of supporting > a computer, or a brain. > > But once we assume the numbers, then we can explain why they will > eventually develop a mathematics (and physics) much richer than the > numbers (including many infinities). > > Above arithmetic, the mathematics (and physics) are just number mind > tools to simplify their lives when the relation with other (universal) > numbers get too much complex, a bit like the complex Riemann Zeta > function is a tool for making simpler the relation between the prime > numbers and the study of their distribution. > > > >> >> I had a thought inspired by one of Roger's posts regarding cause and >> effect extending outside of spacetime. I thought, there is nothing >> preventing the goings on in this universe from having causal >> implications outside our universe. Consider that an advanced >> civilization might choose to simulate our universe and inspect it. >> Then when they observe what happens in our universe the observations >> generate causal effects in their own universe. The same applies to >> our universe, we might choose to observe another universe through >> simulation, and our discoveries or observations of that other >> universe change us. Thus, the various universes that can exist out >> there are more interconnected than we might suppose. Our universe >> is an open book to those universes possessing sufficient >> computational power to simulate it. Likewise, how simple universes >> like certain small instances of the game of life are open books to >> us. The possibilities of gliders in the GoL has led to many >> discussions about GoL gliders, their existence in the GoL universe >> has led to the manifestation of physical changes in our own universe. >> >> I think the entrance of mathematical truth to our own universe is no >> different. Mathematicians have used their minds to simulate objects >> and structures that exist in other universes, in a sense they >> observe them, and then those mathematicians report their >> observations and discoveries concerning those objects, just as an >> advanced civilization might report discoveries about our universe, >> or we might report discoveries about the GoL universe. Thus the >> structures and objects which exist in other universes have directly >> changed the course of the evolution of our own. > > This explanation seems to assume universe(s) and observers, but with > the CTM, we know we don't need to assume them, nor can we really use > them to relate consciousness and matter. This should follow form the > uda reasoning, normally. Apart from this, mathematics looks indeed > like exploration of mathematical realities, but the physical reality > is not one mathematical structure among others, it is a mathematical > structure summing all the other mathematical structure, in some way, > and in arithmetic. > > Bruno > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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