# Re: Math-> Computation-> Mind -> Geometry -> Space -> Matter

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On 13 Jan 2013, at 10:46, Alberto G. Corona wrote:```
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```I Bruno.

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I wanted to put geometry in the chain because materialists seems to base their firm belief in the fact that space is both in mathematics, in the reality and in the mind, so space it is the firm thing where "real" things are located. I try to show that space is just our mental representation of a mathematical reality in R3 where information with survival value is presented and "colored" . This information is the matter. and therefore space and matter is only on the mind.
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That can be locally correct, but is part of what I want an explanation. Geometry, topology, analysis *and* physics should emerge from the arithmetical (notably from the "view from inside. geometry is tricky because we have a qualia for the space of dimension 3 (and lower), but none for higher dimension, and I still don't know if this is a necessity or if it is contingent. Can we hardwired a machine so that he could imagine, and have qualia, for higher than 3 dimensional space?
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Both chains can be alternative descriptions of the same cosmology (basically). since Arithmetic + computation unfold the set of all structures,
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Only the subjective structure. The "objective structure of those subjective structure" is beyond arithmetic. There is sort of "Skolem paradox". With comp, arithmetic got "inside views", and the content of those views are bigger than arithmetic.
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including the ones with good properties of simplicity etc. for biology. But there is an introduction of consciousness in your chain that is lacking in the one I propose.
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Consciousness is mind in the first person perspective.

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I'm conscious that mine is incomplete since the mind (or consciousness in your case) appears as a derivative and this is not so, since existence properly seen, is not possible without consciousness and therefore it must be more at the beginning of the chain by definition.
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Here I disagree,if only methodologically. Consciousness is too much interesting to be taken as an assumption. Computer science suggest an explantion of consciousness in term of the truth that machine cannot avoid, despite they remain unjustifiable. It is really the coupling consciousness/material-realities which emerges from the addition and multiplication of natural numbers.
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A better chain would be, with (<->) in the two first steps since the mind or in your case consciousness is the selector of existence.
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Like in the UD Argument. There is no "magic" involved. I assume comp, and derive from it.
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in your case, I think that consciousness would "cause-back" Arithmetic and computation:
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Exactly: cause back, but not at the same logical state.

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```Math<-> Computation<-> Mind -> Geometry -> Space -> Matter

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We have only dreams, strictly speaking, and we must justifies in detail why we can share some of them.
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Bruno

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2013/1/13 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>

On 12 Jan 2013, at 13:48, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

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Space and time may be a perception of the mind in the Kantian sense. I donĀ“t find that space must be independent of the mind. space and time may be the way we perceive a space-time manifold which is pure mathematical and nothing else. Maybe we can see space out there and we can think on geometrical figures in space (not algebraically) because we have space-mode rasoning on the mind, not because space is pre-existent to the mind, neither because space is something in mathematics, because space is described in math without gemetry.
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And may be that the autopoietic computation, in the forms of natural selection, life and mind are trajectories in the space-time manifold, which, when looked closely form outside space-time, they are nothing but fortunate collisions of particle trajectories and molecules so that entropy stay controlled along these lines, with no reason but fortunate manifold structure and fortunate initial conditions. But looked from inside it appears to have phenomena like matter space, causality, termodinamic irreversibility, time, minds etc.
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OK. My point is that if we assume computationalism it is necessarily so, and constructively so, so making that hypothesis testable.
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We have the logical entaiment:

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Arithmetic -> computations -> consciousness -> sharable dreams -> physical reality/matter -> human biology -> human consciousness.
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It is a generalization of "natural selection" operating from arithmetical truth, and in which the physical reality is itself the result of a self-selection events (the global first person indeterminacy).
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This generalizes both Darwin and Everett, somehow.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Alberto.

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