On 13 Jan 2013, at 10:46, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
I Bruno.
I wanted to put geometry in the chain because materialists seems to
base their firm belief in the fact that space is both in
mathematics, in the reality and in the mind, so space it is the firm
thing where "real" things are located. I try to show that space is
just our mental representation of a mathematical reality in R3 where
information with survival value is presented and "colored" . This
information is the matter. and therefore space and matter is only on
the mind.
That can be locally correct, but is part of what I want an
explanation. Geometry, topology, analysis *and* physics should emerge
from the arithmetical (notably from the "view from inside.
geometry is tricky because we have a qualia for the space of dimension
3 (and lower), but none for higher dimension, and I still don't know
if this is a necessity or if it is contingent.
Can we hardwired a machine so that he could imagine, and have qualia,
for higher than 3 dimensional space?
Both chains can be alternative descriptions of the same cosmology
(basically). since Arithmetic + computation unfold the set of all
structures,
Only the subjective structure. The "objective structure of those
subjective structure" is beyond arithmetic. There is sort of "Skolem
paradox". With comp, arithmetic got "inside views", and the content of
those views are bigger than arithmetic.
including the ones with good properties of simplicity etc. for
biology. But there is an introduction of consciousness in your
chain that is lacking in the one I propose.
Consciousness is mind in the first person perspective.
I'm conscious that mine is incomplete since the mind (or
consciousness in your case) appears as a derivative and this is not
so, since existence properly seen, is not possible without
consciousness and therefore it must be more at the beginning of the
chain by definition.
Here I disagree,if only methodologically. Consciousness is too much
interesting to be taken as an assumption. Computer science suggest an
explantion of consciousness in term of the truth that machine cannot
avoid, despite they remain unjustifiable. It is really the coupling
consciousness/material-realities which emerges from the addition and
multiplication of natural numbers.
A better chain would be, with (<->) in the two first steps since the
mind or in your case consciousness is the selector of existence.
Like in the UD Argument. There is no "magic" involved. I assume comp,
and derive from it.
in your case, I think that consciousness would "cause-back"
Arithmetic and computation:
Exactly: cause back, but not at the same logical state.
Math<-> Computation<-> Mind -> Geometry -> Space -> Matter
We have only dreams, strictly speaking, and we must justifies in
detail why we can share some of them.
Bruno
2013/1/13 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
On 12 Jan 2013, at 13:48, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
Space and time may be a perception of the mind in the Kantian
sense. I don´t find that space must be independent of the mind.
space and time may be the way we perceive a space-time manifold
which is pure mathematical and nothing else. Maybe we can see space
out there and we can think on geometrical figures in space (not
algebraically) because we have space-mode rasoning on the mind,
not because space is pre-existent to the mind, neither because
space is something in mathematics, because space is described in
math without gemetry.
And may be that the autopoietic computation, in the forms of
natural selection, life and mind are trajectories in the space-time
manifold, which, when looked closely form outside space-time, they
are nothing but fortunate collisions of particle trajectories and
molecules so that entropy stay controlled along these lines, with
no reason but fortunate manifold structure and fortunate initial
conditions. But looked from inside it appears to have phenomena
like matter space, causality, termodinamic irreversibility, time,
minds etc.
OK. My point is that if we assume computationalism it is necessarily
so, and constructively so, so making that hypothesis testable.
We have the logical entaiment:
Arithmetic -> computations -> consciousness -> sharable dreams ->
physical reality/matter -> human biology -> human consciousness.
It is a generalization of "natural selection" operating from
arithmetical truth, and in which the physical reality is itself the
result of a self-selection events (the global first person
indeterminacy).
This generalizes both Darwin and Everett, somehow.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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