Hi Bruno Marchal 

Theology (beliefs) is objective and rational, but religiouis experience (faith) 
is subjective. 


----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-25, 15:08:15
Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality


On 24 Jan 2013, at 17:33, Richard Ruquist wrote:

> This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
> After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
> and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
> for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
> science to where it is today.
>
> Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
> John's comments, I wonder why not.

I would say it did, but much earlier, in 523 after JC.

I wrote in another forum:

  Theology is born as a science, but in 523 after JC, we have 
separated the spiritual from the rational, and we are still paying the 
big price.

In the human science we act irrationally, as human history illustrates 
sadly.

Yet, the rational is the genuine path of the spiritual, and the 
religions which deny this can only be based on bad faith, or special 
interests.

I agree with Brent, science has plausibly regressed when the 
authoritative argument in theology has installed itself, and the 
Enlightenment is half enlightenment as non conventional theology did 
not yet go through.

But with the development of technologies we can't afford the luxury to 
be sleepy on the deep questions.

The choice is between lying a short period of time and evolving from 
little catastrophes, or lying for a long period of time and evolving 
from big catastrophes. Somehow.

Bruno






> Richard
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:32 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics 
>> because
>> Protestant "thinking" is every bit as brain dead dumb as the 
>> Pope's. Martin
>> Luther knew perfectly well that religious ideas cannot survive the 
>> slightest
>> amount of rational analysis without completely falling apart, but his
>> solution to that problem was not to get better ideas but to simply 
>> insist
>> that people check their brain at the door before they start to 
>> think about
>> God; here are some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid 
>> made with
>> his mouth, although I think the noises made from the other end of 
>> Luther's
>> gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they 
>> might
>> have disclosed some evidence on how the human digestive system works:
>>
>>
>> ?eason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the 
>> aid of
>> spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles 
>> against the
>> divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God?
>>
>> "Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason."
>>
>> "Reason should be destroyed in all Christians."
>>
>> "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample
>> underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it 
>> sees must be
>> put out of sight and know nothing but the word of God."
>>
>> "Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of 
>> being she is
>> a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; 
>> whore
>> eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and 
>> destroyed,
>> she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She 
>> is and
>> she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the 
>> wretch, to be
>> banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."
>>
>> "We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand 
>> years the
>> world did not exist."
>>
>> "People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove 
>> to show
>> that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun 
>> and the
>> moon. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; 
>> but
>> sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the 
>> sun to
>> stand still, and not the earth."
>>
>>
>> After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the 
>> virtues of
>> stupidity and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into 
>> imbeciles I
>> don't see how anyone could call themselves a Lutheran or a 
>> Protestant or
>> even a Christian without intense embarrassment.
>>
>> John K Clark
>>
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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