On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:15:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 08 Feb 2013, at 21:38, meekerdb wrote:
>>
>>  On 2/8/2013 12:31 AM, Kim Jones wrote:
>>
>> Which is a profound problem that we can lay right at the door of
>> LANGUAGE. Language is indeed a self-serving thing. A description of
>> something is a dance of language, not a dance of PERCEPTION. Perception is
>> often throttled by the processes of language. We need to move beyond words.
>> This is the importance of math and music (which is audible math IMO.)
>>
>>
>> That seems contradictory.  Mathematics is very restricted language -
>> declaratory sentences, logically consistent.
>>
>>
>> Mathematics is not a language at all. You might be confusing mathematics
>> and the theories used to put some light on some mathematical reality.
>>
>
> Then Spanish and French and Italian aren't languages either. People might
> confuse them with the linguistic theories used to put some light on some
> semiotic reality.
>
>
I don't understand how you can consistently miss that "sign" is just what
it is. A pointer is not a convincing primitive. Its just a line with a
triangle at the end.


>
>
>> Also most mathematicians don't care so much about logical consistency.
>> That notion is studied by logicians, but with few incidence on the doing of
>> mathematicians. Logic is just another branch of math, with its own purpose.
>> It can have application in math, or not.
>>
>
> What branches of math contain no logic?
>
>
How was that implied to that degree? If somebody is studying topology of
spheres then they aren't studying necessarily the logic, although they make
use of it.


>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to be an interesting fact that all information can be encoded in
>> binary numbers, but that is the antithesis of you view that the form of
>> representation, painting, dance, music matters in an essential way.
>>
>>
>> The content of the information is usually not encoded, in any form. The
>> mathematical study of that content can be done with some tools in logic, or
>> computare science (with the UM building the meaning), but again, we have to
>> distinguish the content (usually infinite) and the syntactical tools to
>> point on it.
>>
>
> Since we can only infer the content through the tools, how can we assume
> that it exists independently of them?
>
>
Because virtually every creative person... I'll just let Steve Jobbs make
the point (Wired, 1995):

*Creativity is just connecting things. When you ask creative people how
they did something, they feel a little guilty because they didn’t really do
it, they just saw something. It seemed obvious to them after a while.
That’s because they were able to connect experiences they’ve had and
synthesize new things. And the reason they were able to do that was that
they’ve had more experiences or they have thought more about their
experiences than other people.

Unfortunately, that’s too rare a commodity. A lot of people in our industry
haven’t had very diverse experiences. So they don’t have enough dots to
connect, and they end up with very linear solutions without a broad
perspective on the problem. The broader one’s understanding of the human
experience, the better design we will have.*

Now, I assume Jobbs doesn't mean that creative people connect material
things physically with strings, and that we're talking concepts that have
assumed the same form, for millions of mathematicians, musicians,
engineers, painters etc.over the ages, regardless of the particular
configurations of their sensory apparatuses as biological beings.
Arithmetic and the major scale don't depend on the senses- this is
backwards. Sensory data is interpreted by consciousness that perpetually
dreams itself a preferred infinite fiction/computation to encompass that.
The construction of plausibility of said computation is more a property of
consciousness itself, and not something that comes to us by observing a
leaf => we are already dreaming at that point.

Also note Jobbs' use of "diverse experiences", which ties in directly with
the plant teachers and how experimentation with altered states can, given
some circumstances, be of value.

And here I have to confirm Bruno's Salvia preference: to say DMT is merely
some extension of mushrooms and not astonishing, is to confirm that one's
method is not yet fully developed, or there is some physiological
incompatibility. This is not the case and dissociative states can be
achieved with most any classical psychedelic is one doses appropriately.
And the same happens with lysergic acid diethylamide, mescaline, psilocybin
containing mushrooms etc. the more you engage the less you need. Thus I
vote diversity concerning plant or molecular helpers.


>> Math is as different from language than the physical universe is
>> different from a book in cosmology.
>>
>
> The referents of math are different from the referents of other
> specialized languages, but that doesn't mean that it is different from
> other languages. The referents of mathematics are no more infinite than
> those of art, literature, poetry, etc.
>
> Craig
>
>
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/>
>>
>>
>>
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