On Sunday, February 10, 2013 10:41:23 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 09 Feb 2013, at 15:14, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:15:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 08 Feb 2013, at 21:38, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 2/8/2013 12:31 AM, Kim Jones wrote: >> >> Which is a profound problem that we can lay right at the door of >> LANGUAGE. Language is indeed a self-serving thing. A description of >> something is a dance of language, not a dance of PERCEPTION. Perception is >> often throttled by the processes of language. We need to move beyond words. >> This is the importance of math and music (which is audible math IMO.) >> >> >> That seems contradictory. Mathematics is very restricted language - >> declaratory sentences, logically consistent. >> >> >> Mathematics is not a language at all. You might be confusing mathematics >> and the theories used to put some light on some mathematical reality. >> > > Then Spanish and French and Italian aren't languages either. People might > confuse them with the linguistic theories used to put some light on some > semiotic reality. > > > > Not at all. Spanish and French and Italian are languages. They define > strings of symbols, having meaning, which can be on some subject matter, > but they are different from the subject matter. > > Only non-mathematician confuse the mathematical language (that exists too) > and the mathematic subject matter (number, geometrical shapes, algebras, > mathematical structures, etc.). >

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That just makes a straw man of non-mathematical language. The romance language subject matter (description, instruction, nouns, articles, adjectives, literary structures, etc) are also not limited to their immediate syntax. I never said that math referred only to it's own expression, but neither does any language. > > > > > > >> Also most mathematicians don't care so much about logical consistency. >> That notion is studied by logicians, but with few incidence on the doing of >> mathematicians. Logic is just another branch of math, with its own purpose. >> It can have application in math, or not. >> > > What branches of math contain no logic? > > > What branches of anything does not contain logic? > Color, flavor, pain, pleasure, love, imagination, feeling, intuition, etc. > Everyday life is full of logic. > But it isn't necessarily full of math (as tribes like the *PirahÃ£* reveal). Craig > But this is different from logic as a branch of math, which is virtually > known only by logicians, and some computer scientists. It is a pity as it > is a useful tool, but things takes time, and most logicians are not even > aware of their ivory tower. They live in the clouds, we would say in > french. I got problems because I dare to apply what most mathematicians > think to belong to pure math. They don't want people applying their > beautiful discoveries. Of course "pure math" is a myth, provably so with > comp. > > Bruno > > > > > > > > >> >> >> >> It seems to be an interesting fact that all information can be encoded in >> binary numbers, but that is the antithesis of you view that the form of >> representation, painting, dance, music matters in an essential way. >> >> >> The content of the information is usually not encoded, in any form. The >> mathematical study of that content can be done with some tools in logic, or >> computare science (with the UM building the meaning), but again, we have to >> distinguish the content (usually infinite) and the syntactical tools to >> point on it. >> > > Since we can only infer the content through the tools, how can we assume > that it exists independently of them? > > >> Math is as different from language than the physical universe is >> different from a book in cosmology. >> > > The referents of math are different from the referents of other > specialized languages, but that doesn't mean that it is different from > other languages. The referents of mathematics are no more infinite than > those of art, literature, poetry, etc. > > Craig > > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.