On Sunday, February 10, 2013 10:41:23 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 09 Feb 2013, at 15:14, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:15:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 08 Feb 2013, at 21:38, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 2/8/2013 12:31 AM, Kim Jones wrote: >> >> Which is a profound problem that we can lay right at the door of >> LANGUAGE. Language is indeed a self-serving thing. A description of >> something is a dance of language, not a dance of PERCEPTION. Perception is >> often throttled by the processes of language. We need to move beyond words. >> This is the importance of math and music (which is audible math IMO.) >> >> >> That seems contradictory. Mathematics is very restricted language - >> declaratory sentences, logically consistent. >> >> >> Mathematics is not a language at all. You might be confusing mathematics >> and the theories used to put some light on some mathematical reality. >> > > Then Spanish and French and Italian aren't languages either. People might > confuse them with the linguistic theories used to put some light on some > semiotic reality. > > > > Not at all. Spanish and French and Italian are languages. They define > strings of symbols, having meaning, which can be on some subject matter, > but they are different from the subject matter. > > Only non-mathematician confuse the mathematical language (that exists too) > and the mathematic subject matter (number, geometrical shapes, algebras, > mathematical structures, etc.). >
That just makes a straw man of non-mathematical language. The romance language subject matter (description, instruction, nouns, articles, adjectives, literary structures, etc) are also not limited to their immediate syntax. I never said that math referred only to it's own expression, but neither does any language. > > > > > > >> Also most mathematicians don't care so much about logical consistency. >> That notion is studied by logicians, but with few incidence on the doing of >> mathematicians. Logic is just another branch of math, with its own purpose. >> It can have application in math, or not. >> > > What branches of math contain no logic? > > > What branches of anything does not contain logic? > Color, flavor, pain, pleasure, love, imagination, feeling, intuition, etc. > Everyday life is full of logic. > But it isn't necessarily full of math (as tribes like the *Pirahã* reveal). Craig > But this is different from logic as a branch of math, which is virtually > known only by logicians, and some computer scientists. It is a pity as it > is a useful tool, but things takes time, and most logicians are not even > aware of their ivory tower. They live in the clouds, we would say in > french. I got problems because I dare to apply what most mathematicians > think to belong to pure math. They don't want people applying their > beautiful discoveries. Of course "pure math" is a myth, provably so with > comp. > > Bruno > > > > > > > > >> >> >> >> It seems to be an interesting fact that all information can be encoded in >> binary numbers, but that is the antithesis of you view that the form of >> representation, painting, dance, music matters in an essential way. >> >> >> The content of the information is usually not encoded, in any form. The >> mathematical study of that content can be done with some tools in logic, or >> computare science (with the UM building the meaning), but again, we have to >> distinguish the content (usually infinite) and the syntactical tools to >> point on it. >> > > Since we can only infer the content through the tools, how can we assume > that it exists independently of them? > > >> Math is as different from language than the physical universe is >> different from a book in cosmology. >> > > The referents of math are different from the referents of other > specialized languages, but that doesn't mean that it is different from > other languages. The referents of mathematics are no more infinite than > those of art, literature, poetry, etc. > > Craig > > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
