On 09 Feb 2013, at 15:14, Craig Weinberg wrote:

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On Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:15:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Feb 2013, at 21:38, meekerdb wrote:On 2/8/2013 12:31 AM, Kim Jones wrote:Which is a profound problem that we can lay right at the door ofLANGUAGE. Language is indeed a self-serving thing. A descriptionof something is a dance of language, not a dance of PERCEPTION.Perception is often throttled by the processes of language. Weneed to move beyond words. This is the importance of math andmusic (which is audible math IMO.)That seems contradictory. Mathematics is very restricted language- declaratory sentences, logically consistent.Mathematics is not a language at all. You might be confusingmathematics and the theories used to put some light on somemathematical reality.Then Spanish and French and Italian aren't languages either. Peoplemight confuse them with the linguistic theories used to put somelight on some semiotic reality.

`Not at all. Spanish and French and Italian are languages. They define`

`strings of symbols, having meaning, which can be on some subject`

`matter, but they are different from the subject matter.`

`Only non-mathematician confuse the mathematical language (that exists`

`too) and the mathematic subject matter (number, geometrical shapes,`

`algebras, mathematical structures, etc.).`

Also most mathematicians don't care so much about logicalconsistency. That notion is studied by logicians, but with fewincidence on the doing of mathematicians. Logic is just anotherbranch of math, with its own purpose. It can have application inmath, or not.What branches of math contain no logic?

`What branches of anything does not contain logic? Everyday life is`

`full of logic. But this is different from logic as a branch of math,`

`which is virtually known only by logicians, and some computer`

`scientists. It is a pity as it is a useful tool, but things takes`

`time, and most logicians are not even aware of their ivory tower. They`

`live in the clouds, we would say in french. I got problems because I`

`dare to apply what most mathematicians think to belong to pure math.`

`They don't want people applying their beautiful discoveries. Of course`

`"pure math" is a myth, provably so with comp.`

Bruno

It seems to be an interesting fact that all information can beencoded in binary numbers, but that is the antithesis of you viewthat the form of representation, painting, dance, music matters inan essential way.The content of the information is usually not encoded, in any form.The mathematical study of that content can be done with some toolsin logic, or computare science (with the UM building the meaning),but again, we have to distinguish the content (usually infinite) andthe syntactical tools to point on it.Since we can only infer the content through the tools, how can weassume that it exists independently of them?Math is as different from language than the physical universe isdifferent from a book in cosmology.The referents of math are different from the referents of otherspecialized languages, but that doesn't mean that it is differentfrom other languages. The referents of mathematics are no moreinfinite than those of art, literature, poetry, etc.Craig Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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