On Feb 16, 2013, at 5:27 PM, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Saturday, February 16, 2013 3:22:36 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Friday, February 15, 2013 6:48:03 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote:
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 5:03 AM, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> That's what you suspect, but in order for you to be correct there
must
>> be a mysterious non-physical entity that cannot be duplicated, even
>> with advanced scientific methods.
>
>
> Not at all. All that is required for me to be correct is that
experience not
> be 100% repeatable, which, because an experience cannot ultimately
be
> limited to anything except everything in the entire universe, is
> automatically true on that level. For me to be incorrect there
would have to
> be a mysterious non-physical entity which separates any particular
event
> from eternity.
If an experience is not 100% repeatable by repeating the presumed
physical basis underlying it, then you are saying that there is
something other than a physical basis to the experience. This
something else is the mysterious non-physical entity.
No, I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that the idea of
something repeating is a subjective concept. No moment can be
repeated. When I was writing those words, it was a few seconds ago.
In that time, the TV show on in the background has changed, a
quantity of snow has fallen in my back yard, etc. If I say "No
moment can be repeated" again, nothing as been repeated 100%.
Do you have any theory that explains sensation?
Explanation is already a type of sensation. We use explanation to
make cognitive sense of sensations of other types or of other
conceptual sensations (thoughts).
In other words, you are saying there can be no explanation?
Does an infinite amount of information go into producing your
conscious experience over some finite period of time?
Information is not physically real. Formations are representations
which inform our sensitivity. Our conscious experience is not
produced, it is presented.
Well are there an infinite or finite number of formations in that
presentation?
Jason
If not, then it seems plausible that whatever information needs to
go into creating some sensory experience can be duplicated. If it
is non infinite then the pigeon hole principle applies ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle
).
Sensory experience is not created by information, information is a
consequence of sensory experience and conceptual-level motives.
Sensory experience is private physics. Information is a conceptual
abstraction of sensory experience, so that while our thoughts about
information are physical events, the bits and bytes to which they
refer are not physically real.
Craig
Jason
The repetition arises from our sense to compare remembered
experiences and string them together as similar enough to be
considered identical.
>> This is equivalent to saying it is
>> magic. You get offended when I say this, perhaps because it has a
>> pejorative connotation, but that's what it is. Calling it something
>> else does not change the facts.
>
>
> I only get offended because you have no idea what I'm talking
about, so you
> strawman it as some kind of weird idealism. Everything that I
refer to is
> either Matter, Energy, Time, Space, Sense, Motive, Entropy, or
Significance
> - all of which can be ultimately reduced to sense. There is
nothing else,
> and I claim nothing else.
Sense, motive and significance are non-physical,
No, they are physical, but they are private.
but the conventional
view is that they supervene on the physical. You don't agree with
this, so must believe that some other non-physical entity is needed.
This would by definition be something magical, like a soul.
Just the opposite. It is the conventional view which requires a
belief in a magical non-physical never-never land in which our
private experience takes place. Once you realize that the
conventional view is impossible, then you can begin to look for more
realistic alternatives based on the concrete reality of experience
rather than the abstract theory based on measuring interactions of
public bodies. I say that every presence is physical. Thoughts,
feelings, dreams, symbols - all physical, all physics. The relevant
distinction within physics should be private time vs public space,
not "real" vs "illusion".
>> > Can the year 1965 be duplicated? If you wanted just one
millisecond from
>> > 1965. What I am suggesting is that the entire assumption of the
universe
>> > as
>> > bodies or particles be questioned. The universe is unique
variations of
>> > a
>> > single experience, with a continuum of 'similarity' in between,
>> > contingent
>> > upon the experiential capacity of the participant.
>>
>> There is no reason in principle why the year 1965 could not be
>> replicated.
>
>
> Except that it happened already and will never happen again - just
like
> every experience.
If experience is caused by the brain and the brain is reproduced
exactly then the experience will be reproduced exactly.
Experience isn't caused by the brain, any more than the internet is
caused by your computer. Reproducing your computer from 2000 won't
resurrect Napster of 2000. Nothing, and I mean nothing at all has
ever been reproduced exactly.
>> In fact, in several models of cosmology it *is*
>> duplicated. Even if there is only one universe but it is infinite
in
>> extent, given a large enough volume there is bound to be an exact
copy
>> of anything you care to name.
>
>
> You're not seeing that it begs the question though. No matter what
I say,
> you won't be able to imagine that the universe could be
fundamentally
> experiences rather than objects.
>
> The whole notion of 'copies' or 'exact' is based purely on
sensitivity. If
> you have cataracts, it becomes harder to tell people apart and the
Jack of
> Diamonds looks like an exact copy of the Queen of Hearts. If you
factor out
> sensation from the start, everything that comes afterward is
misconception.
Bruno thinks the universe is fundamentally experiences but his view is
consistent with science, eg. a close enough copy of an object will
behave like the original, even if neither the copy nor the original
have a basic physical existence.
Behave like the original to whom? There is no way to copy water
without it being water. If I pour sulfuric acid from a pitcher into
a water glass, I might be able to fool someone into thinking that
this clear liquid is a perfect copy, but the smell and the severe
chemical burns will reveal that the copy is actually very different
in many other ways. Plants know it, even inorganic matter will not
be fooled. It's only in the visual sense that the two liquids seem
equivalent.
>> >> So what you have to explain Craig is what you think would
happen if
>> >> you tried to duplicate a person using very advanced science,
>> >
>> >
>> > If you tried to duplicate a person's body, then you get an
identical
>> > twin -
>> > my guess is probably a dead one.
>>
>> If it's dead then you would have made some mistake in the
duplication.
>
>
> No, your assumption of duplication is not necessarily possible. If
you clone
> everyone in New York City, and drop them into a model you have
built of New
> York, they aren't suddenly going to know where they live and how to
> communicate with each other. You are assuming that particles are
> disconnected generic entities which have no past of future. I am
saying that
> precisely the opposite is also true.
Of course they will know where they live and how to communicate with
each other. The reason you know where you live and how to communicate
is that your brain today is a close copy of your brain yesterday.
No, that's the same pre-affirmation you are smuggling in. If you
can't let go of the certainty that the public shapes of the brain
define experience, then you won't ever locate experience at all. Our
brain is necessary but not sufficient to explain human quality of
consciousness, just as a TV set is necessary but not sufficient to
explain Spongebob Squarepants. We aren't inside our brain, we are
inside our lifetime.
If
something goes wrong in the copying process, like a head injury, you
might forget how to do these things.
There are no identical twins who are the same person, even when they
share the same body.
>> Cells and cell components are constantly being replaced yet you
>> survive. Therefore, it is possible to make a copy of you using
>> inanimate matter; for that is in fact what you are.
>
>
> Because you aren't cells, you are the experiences of cells,
molecules,
> organs, people, civilizations. The cells are like the fuel which
experience
> burns. "Copying" is an intersubjective relation. It just means
that in our
> particular state of mind two things seem identical.
But if you copy the cells you reproduce the experience, and if you
don't then something is missing.
No, you can't reproduce anything. Not a cell, not an experience. It
is a figurative term; an expectation of local consciousness that has
no absolute truth to it.
Craig
--
Stathis Papaioannou
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