On Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:11:36 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
> On 4/4/2013 8:35 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: 
> > 
> > On 04 Apr 2013, at 15:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
> > 
> >> http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-03-memories-death-real-reality.html 
> >> 
> >> "Working together, researchers at the Coma Science Group (Directed by 
> Steven Laureys) 
> >> and the University of Li�ge's Cognitive Psychology Research 
> (Professor Serge Br�dart 
> >> and Hedwige Dehon), have looked into the memories of NDE with the 
> hypothesis that if 
> >> the memories of NDE were pure products of the imagination, their 
> phenomenological 
> >> characteristics (e.g., sensorial, self referential, emotional, etc. 
> details) should be 
> >> closer to those of imagined memories. Conversely, if the NDE are 
> experienced in a way 
> >> similar to that of reality, their characteristics would be closer to 
> the memories of 
> >> real events. 
> >> 
> >> The researchers compared the responses provided by three groups of 
> patients, each of 
> >> which had survived (in a different manner) a coma, and a group of 
> healthy volunteers. 
> >> They studied the memories of NDE and the memories of real events and 
> imagined events 
> >> with the help of a questionnaire which evaluated the phenomenological 
> characteristics 
> >> of the memories. The results were surprising. From the perspective 
> being studied, not 
> >> only were the NDEs not similar to the memories of imagined events, but 
> the 
> >> phenomenological characteristics inherent to the memories of real 
> events (e.g. memories 
> >> of sensorial details) are even more numerous in the memories of NDE 
> than in the 
> >> memories of real events." 
> >> 
> >> These results fully support a sense based model of physics. It makes a 
> falsifiable 
> >> claim that if NDEs are dreams, then they should be like all other 
> dreams. While this 
> >> could still mean that being close to death gives you massively potent 
> dream for some 
> >> reason, it still points to a universe where realism, matter, and public 
> events are 
> >> derived from a universal foundation which is sensory rather than 
> logical. 
> > 
> > With comp, we already know that the physical is a construct of the mind 
> (of the 
> > universal numbers), so your point here is precisely not valid. Indeed 
> you seem to need 
> > some primary matter to distinguish the "sensory" based on carbon from 
> the one which we 
> > could be based on silicon, or numbers. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> Reality is the dream of eternity made temporarily public, not a 
> collection of objects 
> >> making temporary illusions. 
> > 
> > The self-referentially correct universal machine agrees with this. 100%. 
> It is not 
> > obvious at all, but that's what the UDA explains. 
> > 
> > On this you are more correct than many materialist, but you fit 
> perfectly well with 
> > comp. That is why I find a bit sad that you insist that comp is false. 
> Keep in mind 
> > that, unlike what many are thinking, comp is incompatible with even very 
> weak form of 
> > materialism. So much that physics should be entirely derivable from the 
> global FPI on 
> > arithmetic. The math confirms this up to now, if we agree with some 
> rather standard 
> > definition in the theory of knowledge. 
> > 
> > It would be interesting to see if some drug does not also produce more 
> of the 
> > phenomenological characteristics inherent to the memories of real 
> events. Now, I have 
> > not read those papers, and as you notice, it might only be more "potent 
> dream". 
>
>
> Dreams are not "pure products of imagination", and nobody has ever 
> suggested they were.   
> The researchers compared NDE reports to memories of real and imagined 
> events, not dreams.   
> But what does "memory of an imagined event" mean?  It means the 
> researchers asked the 
> subjects to imagine remembering something that didn't happen. They 
> discovered that this 
> did not have as much sensory detail as the memories of real events and 
> NDEs.  Dog bites man. 
>

But the memories of the NDEs are clearer than the real events. Common sense 
tells us that memories of imagined events or dreams would be less detailed.

Craig
 

>
> Brent 
>
> > 
> > In fact, from the usual work on dreams, by Jouvet, LaBerge, Dement and 
> Hobson, for 
> > example, what is striking, is the remarkable similarity of the REM brain 
> states and the 
> > awake brain states, for diverse tasks (computing, singing, walking, 
> moving arms, seeing 
> > color, etc.). 
> > 
> > 
> > Bruno 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
> > 
> > 
> > 
>
>

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