Craig - John - this is to the hard-to-identify last part of your combined
and mixed post signed by John K C. about the 'consciousness' ("C") part.
I know that* intelligence* is a requirement of consciousness, just identify
intelligence appropriately.<G>. -  I like to indentify *"i"* with the Latin
origin as 'inter-lego' (between the lines) tp consider more than properly
expressed by the words used - maybe considering the 'meaning' represented
by the 'name' (word, term) in the particular language - always more
comprehensive than the general usage of a term. One may tailor-make *"i"  *to
fit to a given 'meaning' used in one's own theory for "C".

Otherwise:

I have "another method" maybe not to 'measure', but identify consciousness
(at least the term as many talk about it): it is *a response to
relations.*IMO definitely NOT a HUMAN ONLY (not even animal)
characteristic. I try not
to call it "C".
I consider the "C" term useful for people tackling with human behavior and
in need of a general term to 'name' a group of phenomena they need for it.
I definitely refuse definitions like "you can FEEL it" or "you know it for
sure".
Relations? we may know 'some' - or THINK we know. We, for sure, don't know
a lot of them since our knowledge is restricted (growing(?) over the
millennia with no assurance to reach 'them all'). We don't even know WHAT
items(?) exercise relations in the infinite complexity (which is beyond our
capabilities to learn).

Agnostically yours
John Mikes Ph.D., D.Sc.



On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:32:25 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>wrote:
>>
>>  >> You may be pedantic about the use of anthropomorphic language but I
>>>> am not.
>>>>
>>>
>>> > It can become distracting / misleading in deeper discussions about the
>>> mechanisms of evolution.
>>>
>>
>> I don't care, anybody who was mislead or distracted and believed
>> Evolution could think would be so stupid that I wouldn't care to talk to
>> them. And as you once said "who are you to say what's useful or not as a
>> tool for other people to think and understand?".
>>
>>
>>> > Emergence is just a way to connect different levels of abstraction.
>>>
>>
>> The trouble is people say X leads to Y but when asked how they just wave
>> their hands around and say it's a emergent property, as if that explains
>> something.
>>
>> > What do you mean "useful"?
>>
>>
>> I'm not going to tell you. Any definition I give you will be made of
>> words and I have no doubt you would then demand a definition of at least
>> one of those words.
>>
>>
>>> >> That's the trouble with this list, everybody is a big picture man
>>>> with their own fundamental holistic theories about consciousness
>>>>
>>>> > Isn't "big picture" the theme of this list?
>>>
>>
>> I thought the theme of this list was everything, and details are
>> something. Dilettantes are always big picture men because that is so much
>> easier than being a details man; they are VERY big picture men, so big that
>> their ideas have made absolutely no changes to science or to anything that
>> anyone can measure.
>>
>> > If consciousness is easier than intelligence
>>>
>>
>> Evolution certainly found that to be the case.
>>
>> >  how come we have scientific progress in the latter and not in the
>>> former?
>>>
>>
>> Today's computers are smarter than they were 10 years ago so I think it
>> is highly likely that they are more conscious too.
>>
>
> Nobody could think that except someone who is trying hard to believe it.
> If anything, computers have become more disposable. Nobody seriously
> imagines that any digital device - from their cell phone to Watson, can
> tell the difference between being turned off and turned on. They can't
> tell, they don't care, there is no 'they' there. The number of circuits
> only matters of something cares about using them, and a computer does not
> care about anything.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>> If you have another method for measuring consciousness other than
>> intelligent behavior I would very much like to hear about it.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> > how do you know that intelligence is a requirement of consciousness?
>>>
>>
>> The only consciousness I have direct experience with is my own and I note
>> that when I'm sleepy my consciousness is reduced and so is my intelligence,
>> when I'm alert the reverse is true.
>>
>> > Somebody who puts  "philosopher" in the occupation line on his tax form
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ok, I guess Plato and Aristotle and the rest of that gang are out then.
>>>
>>
>> Archimedes was a mathematician and he discovered more philosophy than
>> Plato and Aristotle combined.
>>
>>   John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
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