"No computer I have ever worked on has ever been conscious of anything that it is doing. "
Hi Craig, On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:45 PM, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]>wrote: > > > On Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:44:31 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: >> >> Ummm, Craig, you couldn't tell if you were switched off and on unless you >> had environmental clues that time when by/shit moved around... I think that >> you are being a bit specist here. Computers are very much conscious, just >> not self-aware in any way relatable to our experience of such. >> > > No computer I have ever worked on has ever been conscious of anything that > it is doing. Services do not know what each other are doing, none of the > messages in the logs are meaningful to the computer itself. What the > computer produces is only potentially meaningful to a user, and it produces > nothing which is useful to itself. What I meant by a computer not knowing > the difference between between being turned off and turned on is that it > makes no difference to them - they can discern no preferred state - no > computer wants to commit suicide so that it can be turned off. > > It's so obviously the Pathetic fallacy to attribute consciousness to these > representational systems that its hard for me to take the counterargument > seriously. The counterargument seems to be nothing more than the assumption > that since some generic, anesthetic mind-like functions can be simulated > that consciousness itself should work the same way. > > Craig > > > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:32:25 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Telmo Menezes >>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>> >> You may be pedantic about the use of anthropomorphic language but I >>>>>> am not. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > It can become distracting / misleading in deeper discussions about >>>>> the mechanisms of evolution. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I don't care, anybody who was mislead or distracted and believed >>>> Evolution could think would be so stupid that I wouldn't care to talk to >>>> them. And as you once said "who are you to say what's useful or not as a >>>> tool for other people to think and understand?". >>>> >>>> >>>>> > Emergence is just a way to connect different levels of abstraction. >>>>> >>>> >>>> The trouble is people say X leads to Y but when asked how they just >>>> wave their hands around and say it's a emergent property, as if that >>>> explains something. >>>> >>>> > What do you mean "useful"? >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not going to tell you. Any definition I give you will be made of >>>> words and I have no doubt you would then demand a definition of at least >>>> one of those words. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >> That's the trouble with this list, everybody is a big picture man >>>>>> with their own fundamental holistic theories about consciousness >>>>>> >>>>>> > Isn't "big picture" the theme of this list? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I thought the theme of this list was everything, and details are >>>> something. Dilettantes are always big picture men because that is so much >>>> easier than being a details man; they are VERY big picture men, so big that >>>> their ideas have made absolutely no changes to science or to anything that >>>> anyone can measure. >>>> >>>> > If consciousness is easier than intelligence >>>>> >>>> >>>> Evolution certainly found that to be the case. >>>> >>>> > how come we have scientific progress in the latter and not in the >>>>> former? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Today's computers are smarter than they were 10 years ago so I think it >>>> is highly likely that they are more conscious too. >>>> >>> >>> Nobody could think that except someone who is trying hard to believe >>> it. If anything, computers have become more disposable. Nobody seriously >>> imagines that any digital device - from their cell phone to Watson, can >>> tell the difference between being turned off and turned on. They can't >>> tell, they don't care, there is no 'they' there. The number of circuits >>> only matters of something cares about using them, and a computer does not >>> care about anything. >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> >>> >>>> If you have another method for measuring consciousness other than >>>> intelligent behavior I would very much like to hear about it. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> > how do you know that intelligence is a requirement of consciousness? >>>>> >>>> >>>> The only consciousness I have direct experience with is my own and I >>>> note that when I'm sleepy my consciousness is reduced and so is my >>>> intelligence, when I'm alert the reverse is true. >>>> >>>> > Somebody who puts "philosopher" in the occupation line on his tax >>>>>> form >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ok, I guess Plato and Aristotle and the rest of that gang are out then. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Archimedes was a mathematician and he discovered more philosophy than >>>> Plato and Aristotle combined. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/** >>> topic/everything-list/K7E-**Vfwj4QU/unsubscribe?hl=en<https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/K7E-Vfwj4QU/unsubscribe?hl=en> >>> . >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> everything-li...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.**com. >>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>> . >>> For more options, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/K7E-Vfwj4QU/unsubscribe?hl=en > . > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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