On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>wrote:

>> You may be pedantic about the use of anthropomorphic language but I am
>> not.
> > It can become distracting / misleading in deeper discussions about the
> mechanisms of evolution.

I don't care, anybody who was mislead or distracted and believed Evolution
could think would be so stupid that I wouldn't care to talk to them. And as
you once said "who are you to say what's useful or not as a tool for other
people to think and understand?".

> > Emergence is just a way to connect different levels of abstraction.

The trouble is people say X leads to Y but when asked how they just wave
their hands around and say it's a emergent property, as if that explains

> What do you mean "useful"?

I'm not going to tell you. Any definition I give you will be made of words
and I have no doubt you would then demand a definition of at least one of
those words.

> >> That's the trouble with this list, everybody is a big picture man with
>> their own fundamental holistic theories about consciousness
>> > Isn't "big picture" the theme of this list?

I thought the theme of this list was everything, and details are something.
Dilettantes are always big picture men because that is so much easier than
being a details man; they are VERY big picture men, so big that their ideas
have made absolutely no changes to science or to anything that anyone can

> If consciousness is easier than intelligence

Evolution certainly found that to be the case.

>  how come we have scientific progress in the latter and not in the former?

Today's computers are smarter than they were 10 years ago so I think it is
highly likely that they are more conscious too. If you have another method
for measuring consciousness other than intelligent behavior I would very
much like to hear about it.

> how do you know that intelligence is a requirement of consciousness?

The only consciousness I have direct experience with is my own and I note
that when I'm sleepy my consciousness is reduced and so is my intelligence,
when I'm alert the reverse is true.

> Somebody who puts  "philosopher" in the occupation line on his tax form
> Ok, I guess Plato and Aristotle and the rest of that gang are out then.

Archimedes was a mathematician and he discovered more philosophy than Plato
and Aristotle combined.

  John K Clark

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