Ummm, Craig, you couldn't tell if you were switched off and on unless you
had environmental clues that time when by/shit moved around... I think that
you are being a bit specist here. Computers are very much conscious, just
not self-aware in  any way relatable to our experience of such.


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:32:25 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>wrote:
>>
>>  >> You may be pedantic about the use of anthropomorphic language but I
>>>> am not.
>>>>
>>>
>>> > It can become distracting / misleading in deeper discussions about the
>>> mechanisms of evolution.
>>>
>>
>> I don't care, anybody who was mislead or distracted and believed
>> Evolution could think would be so stupid that I wouldn't care to talk to
>> them. And as you once said "who are you to say what's useful or not as a
>> tool for other people to think and understand?".
>>
>>
>>> > Emergence is just a way to connect different levels of abstraction.
>>>
>>
>> The trouble is people say X leads to Y but when asked how they just wave
>> their hands around and say it's a emergent property, as if that explains
>> something.
>>
>> > What do you mean "useful"?
>>
>>
>> I'm not going to tell you. Any definition I give you will be made of
>> words and I have no doubt you would then demand a definition of at least
>> one of those words.
>>
>>
>>> >> That's the trouble with this list, everybody is a big picture man
>>>> with their own fundamental holistic theories about consciousness
>>>>
>>>> > Isn't "big picture" the theme of this list?
>>>
>>
>> I thought the theme of this list was everything, and details are
>> something. Dilettantes are always big picture men because that is so much
>> easier than being a details man; they are VERY big picture men, so big that
>> their ideas have made absolutely no changes to science or to anything that
>> anyone can measure.
>>
>> > If consciousness is easier than intelligence
>>>
>>
>> Evolution certainly found that to be the case.
>>
>> >  how come we have scientific progress in the latter and not in the
>>> former?
>>>
>>
>> Today's computers are smarter than they were 10 years ago so I think it
>> is highly likely that they are more conscious too.
>>
>
> Nobody could think that except someone who is trying hard to believe it.
> If anything, computers have become more disposable. Nobody seriously
> imagines that any digital device - from their cell phone to Watson, can
> tell the difference between being turned off and turned on. They can't
> tell, they don't care, there is no 'they' there. The number of circuits
> only matters of something cares about using them, and a computer does not
> care about anything.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>> If you have another method for measuring consciousness other than
>> intelligent behavior I would very much like to hear about it.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> > how do you know that intelligence is a requirement of consciousness?
>>>
>>
>> The only consciousness I have direct experience with is my own and I note
>> that when I'm sleepy my consciousness is reduced and so is my intelligence,
>> when I'm alert the reverse is true.
>>
>> > Somebody who puts  "philosopher" in the occupation line on his tax form
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ok, I guess Plato and Aristotle and the rest of that gang are out then.
>>>
>>
>> Archimedes was a mathematician and he discovered more philosophy than
>> Plato and Aristotle combined.
>>
>>   John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
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