On 20 Apr 2013, at 15:28, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2013 3:46:49 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 19 Apr 2013, at 17:47, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Friday, April 19, 2013 9:49:35 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 18 Apr 2013, at 14:01, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Thursday, April 18, 2013 5:42:21 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 17 Apr 2013, at 19:09, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
> It is more easy to see the irrationality of others than of
oneself apparently.
In general that is certainly true but Bruno let me ask you a very
serious question, doesn't all this astrology stuff bother you and
make you question how you allocate your time? Doesn't it bother
you to learn that Craig Weinberg, somebody you have spent a lot
of effort debating with, would say things like "embody the
Aquarian tension of revolutionary rationalism symbolized by the
Saturnian-Uranian co-rulership of Aquarius." and "With their
interesting combination of Mars in Libra squaring their Moon and
trining their Sun" and "The Neptune Saturn conjunction with the
Jupiter stellium in Neptune-ruled Pisce" and "There is nothing
in numerology or astrology which is even remotely as flaky as
modern cosmology." and "Astrology is extremely rational" ?
I've got to tell you that finding out that I have misjudged
somebody that massively bothers the hell out of me.
I agree with you. But Craig made a lot of invalid arguments well
before this gross statements. As a teacher I am used to bet that
crank can progress, so when an argument is invalid I make the
correction. I know that some people cannot listen, but I keep
hope, basically because that's my job.
His argument for astrology was isomorphic to the main argument in
favor of drug prohibition. Basically a confusion between p->q and
q->p. Everyday that error appears in media, news, etc., be it on
terrorism, drug, religion, etc. I can't help to denounce it
wherever it appears.
When have I ever argued in favor of drug prohibition? Are you
confusing me with one of the Right-Wingers?
When and where did I ever argue that you were in favor of drug
prohibition?
I as just saying that your argument in favor of astrology contained
the same logical mistake than the one which figure in basically all
papers in favor of prohibition. I did reply and explain at that time.
Oh, sorry, I read it as 'my' argument for drug prohibition. Must be
the drugs ;)
You do a lot of mistake in logic.
Maybe. But that may not be important. That might be an irrelevant
distraction to an underlying thesis which is sound.
That is an argument per authority. It is obvious that the validity
of argument is what count, if not it is only propaganda.
Logic may not be able to realize the deeper issues of subjectivity.
Logic? Indeed. It can't.
But logic can't realize the deeper issue of Turing universality either.
If logic is subtly bent in the right places (and I don't know that
mine is, but you accuse me of that), then it might illuminate
important areas which logic cannot reach. The intuition pump is
exactly what you do want.
You take special sample and conclude from that. Today you said once
again: "No computer I have ever worked on has ever been conscious
of anything that it is doing. ...", like if that was an argument
against the idea that a computer *can* support some experience.
The only reason that I argue that a computer cannot support
experience, is because experience is not based on something other
than itself.
This might be phenomenologically true in other theories, by
justifiable reason.
I am saying that it is ontologically true.
Then you stop doing science. (You might never have begun, to be sure).
Not talking about our own experience, but the principle of
experience in general - it makes no sense as a function of any other
phenomenon.
As an extensional function? You are right. But computer science is
mainly the study of intensional function. Programs are not functions.
I don't take the fact that computers are not conscious as an
argument that they can't be, only that it should be a clue to us
that there is something fundamentally different about logic
circuits then zygotes.
Racists says similar thing about Indians, black, etc.
But all races and racists will save their own children from a
burning building before they save a computer...even a really nice
supercomputer.
If the computer maintain the children or some ancestors alive, they
might do.
I have gone over the reason why computers qua computers will never
have experiences many times - it is because the map is not the
territory. Computation is devoid of aesthetics and consciousness is
100% aesthetic.
If you say so ...
I do.
I see.
Bruno
Craig
Bruno
It assumes awareness the wrong way around, as a product of nonsense
or a fixed uniformity of sense rather than the eternal fertility of
aesthetic sense. We do run on machines, and we run machines, but
machines run on sense.
That is not a valid argument.
I would agree, but that wasn't my argument.
Craig
Bruno
Craig
Bruno
John K Clark
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