On Saturday, April 20, 2013 3:46:49 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 19 Apr 2013, at 17:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Friday, April 19, 2013 9:49:35 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 18 Apr 2013, at 14:01, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, April 18, 2013 5:42:21 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 17 Apr 2013, at 19:09, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> <snip> >>> >>> >>> > It is more easy to see the irrationality of others than of oneself >>>> apparently. >>>> >>> >>> In general that is certainly true but Bruno let me ask you a very >>> serious question, doesn't all this astrology stuff bother you and make you >>> question how you allocate your time? Doesn't it bother you to learn that >>> Craig Weinberg, somebody you have spent a lot of effort debating with, >>> would say things like "embody the Aquarian tension of revolutionary >>> rationalism symbolized by the Saturnian-Uranian co-rulership of Aquarius." >>> and "With their interesting combination of Mars in Libra squaring their >>> Moon and trining their Sun" and "The Neptune Saturn conjunction with the >>> Jupiter stellium in Neptune-ruled Pisce" and "There is nothing in >>> numerology or astrology which is even remotely as flaky as modern >>> cosmology." and "Astrology is extremely rational" ? I've got to tell you >>> that finding out that I have misjudged somebody that massively bothers the >>> hell out of me. >>> >>> >>> I agree with you. But Craig made a lot of invalid arguments well before >>> this gross statements. As a teacher I am used to bet that crank can >>> progress, so when an argument is invalid I make the correction. I know that >>> some people cannot listen, but I keep hope, basically because that's my job. >>> >>> His argument for astrology was isomorphic to the main argument in favor >>> of drug prohibition. Basically a confusion between p->q and q->p. Everyday >>> that error appears in media, news, etc., be it on terrorism, drug, >>> religion, etc. I can't help to denounce it wherever it appears. >>> >> >> When have I ever argued in favor of drug prohibition? Are you confusing >> me with one of the Right-Wingers? >> >> >> When and where did I ever argue that you were in favor of drug >> prohibition? >> >> I as just saying that your argument in favor of astrology contained the >> same logical mistake than the one which figure in basically all papers in >> favor of prohibition. I did reply and explain at that time. >> > > Oh, sorry, I read it as 'my' argument for drug prohibition. Must be the > drugs ;) > > >> You do a lot of mistake in logic. >> > > Maybe. But that may not be important. That might be an irrelevant > distraction to an underlying thesis which is sound. > > > > That is an argument per authority. It is obvious that the validity of > argument is what count, if not it is only propaganda. >
Logic may not be able to realize the deeper issues of subjectivity. If logic is subtly bent in the right places (and I don't know that mine is, but you accuse me of that), then it might illuminate important areas which logic cannot reach. The intuition pump is exactly what you do want. > > > > > > >> You take special sample and conclude from that. Today you said once >> again: "No computer I have ever worked on has ever been conscious of >> anything that it is doing. ...", like if that was an argument against the >> idea that a computer *can* support some experience. >> > > The only reason that I argue that a computer cannot support experience, is > because experience is not based on something other than itself. > > > This might be phenomenologically true in other theories, by justifiable > reason. > I am saying that it is ontologically true. Not talking about our own experience, but the principle of experience in general - it makes no sense as a function of any other phenomenon. > > > > > I don't take the fact that computers are not conscious as an argument that > they can't be, only that it should be a clue to us that there is something > fundamentally different about logic circuits then zygotes. > > > Racists says similar thing about Indians, black, etc. > But all races and racists will save their own children from a burning building before they save a computer...even a really nice supercomputer. > > > > > > I have gone over the reason why computers qua computers will never have > experiences many times - it is because the map is not the territory. > Computation is devoid of aesthetics and consciousness is 100% aesthetic. > > > If you say so ... > I do. Craig > > Bruno > > > It assumes awareness the wrong way around, as a product of nonsense or a > fixed uniformity of sense rather than the eternal fertility of aesthetic > sense. We do run on machines, and we run machines, but machines run on > sense. > > >> That is not a valid argument. >> > > I would agree, but that wasn't my argument. > > Craig > > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
