On 14 Apr 2013, at 01:24, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Saturday, April 13, 2013 7:47:51 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 12 Apr 2013, at 20:09, John Clark wrote:
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> There is nothing in numerology or astrology which is even
remotely as flaky as modern cosmology.
> > After several statements of this sort I don't see how anybody
who values rationality can take anything that Craig Weinberg says
seriously.
> That is not valid.
If it's not valid then I do see how somebody who values rationality
can take anything that Craig Weinberg says seriously. But no, I
believe I'm a better judge of what i think than you are and I
really think that I don't see how anybody who values rationality
can take anything that Craig Weinberg says seriously.
You can always go at the meta-level and ask yourself how could a
machine asserts things like that.
The surprise here is that self-referentially correct machines can
assert quite similar things than Craig, and of course this refutes
his no-comp conclusion or prejudice.
So if self-referentially correct machines can assert quite similar
things that I do, what about the self-referentially correct machines
can assert similar things to what Bruno asserts? If one machine
claims that the other machine's reports are self-referential
artifacts, then how can you say that self-referentially correct
machines assert anything in particular? Where are you getting the
sense of machine consensus when comp would mean that humans, often
incapable of consensus, would contribute evidence to support or
contradict any position or belief?
When a machine is self-referentially correct, it is always relative to
some other universal machine. That is why in the formal theory we must
start from one Turing universal system, like (N, +, *).
Also, a belief can be both self-referential and referential. In "I see
the moon", there is a simultaneous reference and self-reference. Both
can be correct.
About astrology, I suspect it was a kind of provocation only.
Astrology is interesting to me because if there were nothing to it
than the charts of important figures and events in history, and
members of families would show no meaningful patterns beyond what is
expected by coincidence and confirmation bias. If you look at the
actual charts and analyze them you will find an unfailing and
obvious correspondence even subtracting out a generous confirmation
bias. Look them up. See what Napoleon's chart looks like, and
Hitler, and Einstein. They are all readily available online. Look up
the Moon landing and JFK assassination. If you are interested, then
don't take my word for it. If you aren't interested, then go on
assuming that it is idiotic, it makes no difference to me.
Give me any date, and any program doing a chart from a date, and I
will give you *many* examples which fits. To make your point, you must
not look at the chart of a small sample of people by date, but on a
rather large sample.
Now, if this has been done, give me the references. Because statistics
can be misused very easily too.
And for someone seeming to dislike determinacy, what would that mean?
A new way to discriminate people?
Bruno
Craig
Bruno
> It is not because a statement made by an entity is not correct
that all statements (or all reasonings) made by that entity is not
correct (or valid).
Given the fact that you are mortal and only have a finite amount of
time to listen to anybody say anything if you knew that somebody
passionately believed that the earth was flat would you really
carefully listen to what he had to say about ANYTHING? Belief in
astrology and numerology is just as bad as a flat earth.
> To be sure, I would not defend that precise statement made by
Craig,
I would sincerely hope that you wouldn't defend a statement that
was even approximately like the one made by Craig, otherwise I've
been on the wrong list for over a year.
> Many scientists have rejected the existence of lucid dreams, only
because it was published in a journal of parapsychology.
I have no trouble with the idea of lucid dreaming, even Feynman
said he could do it in the 1930's when he was a student, but given
their track record I wouldn't trust one word I read about anything
in a journal of parapsychology, so there is no point in my reading
them.
John K Clark
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