On 09 May 2013, at 18:14, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/9/2013 2:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 08 May 2013, at 22:46, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/8/2013 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 08 May 2013, at 11:56, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal
<marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 07 May 2013, at 20:55, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, May 6, 2013 John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
there is no random decay or anything else
There is no way you can deduce that from pure reason and the
experimental
evidence strongly indicates that you are wrong about that.
only things that happen without our - so far - accessed
explanation.
And thanks to experiments involving Bell's inequality we know
for a fact
that if apparently random things happen for a reason they can't
be local
reasons; for example the reason the coin came up heads right
now is because
a billion years in the FUTURE a butterfly like creature on a
planet in the
Andromeda Galaxy flapped it's wings twice instead of 3 times.
Hi Bruno,
You assume the collapse of the wave. There are experimental
evidences
against it,
Could you elaborate?
I was thinking to quantum erasure experiments. We can make a wave
"collapse", by some measurement, and still make it cohere again,
by erasing the memory of the experience/the result of the
experiment. If observation did collapse or select irreversibly,
that could not make sense.
But it isn't a "measurement" if you can make it cohere again. A
measurement is irreversbile, "erasing" means reversing the process
that, if it were not erased could have become a measurement.
You beg the question. Nothing is irreversible.
On the contrary it is you who are begging the question. You are
claiming that measurements are reversible because your theory says
they are reversible, even though in practice they are not, and this
shows your theory is right.
To be sure, this is an open problem in comp, but the material
hypostases suggest that the core physics will be symmetrical, but we
can't say much more. But the empirical evidences is that everything is
reversible in nature, even falling in a black hole. There is no
experimental evidences that something is irreversible in nature. The
collapse of the wave has never been well defined, and Everett shows it
to be spurious. Apparent irreversibility is easily explained by the
theory.
For practical reason macroscopic measurement seems irreversible, as
we cannot track the leaking of information, and can no more
practically erase it. Quantum erasure algorithm would not work if
measurement were irreversible, and what such local measurement,
where we can still erase the information and get back to coherence
shows that the collapse is not well defined. Of course Einstein
already shows that the collapse cannot be covariant, and Bohr
acknowledged that it cannot be a physical event, but then why to
introduce it to begin with (except the wanting to be unique).
Yes, it's a mathematical operation. In decoherence theory, it's
taking a trace. I'm quite willing to entertain the idea of FPI, but
it's till randomness.
But a first person one, which exists "trivially" when we bet we are
duplicable, or machines. It is an important randomness playing a big
role, but it is not a physical randomness, only a psychological or
theological, whatever.
Bruno
Brent
Quantum computation algorithm also support the relative "physical
reality" of the superposition states.
The collapse is not even an axiom. It is a meta-axiom saying
'don't listen to the theory when she talk about you or your body.
She get absolutelly crazy, like if we could be ourself in
superposiion states Ha ha ha!".
Without the Born axiom there'd be no way to related QM to actual
observations. According to the Schrodinger equation nothing every
really happens.
Nothing or everything happens, with the SWE or with arithmetic.
Then it is a matter of listening and studying the memory content of
the subsystem inside. They do believe things happen, and they are
right.
And the Born axioms can be extracted from SWE + COMP (+ FPI). Only
problem: the logic asks to derive the SWE too, and this works well
up to now.
Bruno
Brent
and there are no experimental evidence of any randomness other
than some FPI, on the branch of a universal wave, or, as we
need with comp,
on arithmetic.
To believe in events without cause or reason is ... pseudo-
religion. It is a
belief in something without any evidences, to introduce
unsolvable problem
on purpose.
This is a strong argument in favor of theories like comp, or at
least
some form of many-worlds. "True randomness" strikes me as an
euphemism
for magic.
I suspect you mean "true physical randomness", or a 3p
randomness, but this still exist mathematically, and
experimentally, like when splitting beams of photons are
observed, of course it is only first person indeterminacy on the
wave.
Betting on "true randomness" for an observed reality is like
asserting "don't ask for more explanation".
But from inside we might be confronted with some true randomness,
like with the quantum beams.
Bruno
Telmo.
Bruno
John K Clark
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