On 04 Jul 2013, at 14:31, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Interesting Dr. Marchal,

Do you hold that Dr. Robert Lanza and Bob Berman, may be on to something then? Lanza is a cell biologist, and Berman is an astronomer. They, together, came up with the theory of biocentrism, as the trigger to make probability real. That life, even at its simplest structures (bacteria) act as an observer to sense the universe, out of a cloud of probabilities swirling around us.

It is less wrong that many others idea, with respect to comp.



That, life consciously, and unconsciously selects the physical cosmos.

Life, or consciousness. or consciousness filters "non life". Comp, or if you prefer, the "correct understanding of comp" is sympathetic with such idea, unless simplified or taken too much literally. All we need to have are the relations between number derivable from the addition and multiplication laws. This emulates, in the arithmetical Turing sense, the histories, and we, first persons are distributed in those histories.

I have often used the term biology instead of psychology or theology.






They have called it the Biocentrsm Theory. Maybe life is what causes the math to process as axioms, as programs (if you are a Stephen Wolfram fan?)

Wolfram is still physicalist, and is close to digital physicalism, which is not only a digital way to eliminate the subject, both also a deny of the quantum reality. But I love cellular automata, and he wrote entertaining books.




to emerge from the great probability 'cloud.'

The question is probability cloud of what? Which events? What is bio?
The amoeba problem is solved by phi_e() = e. I explain later.
Sex, embryogenesis and regeneration problems are solved by a variant of above.

Numbers does that all the time, but the consciousness flux starts when the number self-refers, and build coherent maps of their most probable scenarios/dreams, until they wake up in more coherent scenarios, ad infinitum.





Or, am I misunderstanding what you have intended? In both cases, yours, and theirs, there is no specific, physical universe, because it chrystalizes out of observation.

I think you understood well. The approach is of course different. I start from the assumption that we are machines, and shows that the physical chrysalises out of observation. In fact, it is just one aspect of a theological reality (with immortal soul) which crystalizes, or chysalises, you must choose :), from very simple, but Turing universal (derivable from elementary arithmetic). Biocentrism would be a part of the more theological processes, and a part of physics needs some of the incommunicable (theological) resources. The quantum, actually appears only on the theological part of the observation, which fits better with the neoplatonists, compared to a biocentrism still possibly conceived through an aristotelian conception of reality. I don't know for sure as I did not study them.





In Charlie Stross's work of science fiction, Accelerondo, Stross posits that the Big Bang was a statistical computation that ran over 14 billion years ago, and we are the remnant of the statistical processing.

That science fiction.

Reality is beyond fiction :)

What can be said (or argued for) is that *assuming* that we are machine (comp), itself fiction or reality we can never know (in science), we belong to an infinity of (probably deep, in Bennett or related sense) computations, and we can share them due to their linearity at their core. It is an open problem if some oracles are at play, but something like evolution is close to the halting oracle (in Turing sense).

Bruno





Mitch


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:22 am
Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism


On 03 Jul 2013, at 23:48, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Dr. Marchal,

Hello.

It's not an opinion, but a question motivated by observation. It doesn't make this point of view, axiomatically, correct. But, I do feel this issue needs to be addressed at some point, via scientific measure. The question is how? What would be our motivation to undertake this study-do non-material things exist? Can non-material object exist. Or am I asking do non-existing objects exist? Or, do non-material things exist elsewhere in our universe, but a difficult to ordinarily detect?

You seem to assume that there is a physical universe. I don't assume that. You seem to assume Aristotle idea that what exist = what we can see, or observe, measure ... but the ancient dream argument already show that such inference is not valid.

God created the natural numbers and said add and multiply. All the rest are dreams which exist due to the Turing universality of "add and multiply".

You might have a difficulty to conceive that "physical existence" might not be a primitive existence. Platonist have at the start doubt that the physical reality is not a sort of illusion. Comp explains that oit might be more rational to think so.

Bruno





-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism


On 03 Jul 2013, at 20:46, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Not to be a jerk, but can someone give us an example of non- materialism? Even human thoughts is neurons and chemicals sizzling away in the skull.

This is your assumption. But Platonist believed that this view might be wrong. And I argue that if we are machine, it ill be easier to explain the illusion of matter to conscious number relations (like what computer handled) than to expolain the illusion of consciousness to material things.










Is not Ontology a discussion on what exists?


Yes, and with comp, you can consider that only 0 and its successor exists, and that they obey to some laws (succession, addition, multiplication: that's enough). Then you can prove in that theory that all pieces of computations exist, and that matter appears, in the conscious relative numbers as a stable illusion, obeying laws, etc.





(Epistemology is what is knowledge or what do we know? If I remember right).

Yes.



Can it then be said, via math that non-material objects exists?

They certainly exists in the logical sense: that we can prove that prime number exists once we accept that 0 exist. Does it really exist? But that is a new notion, and if you use it you have to define it.



If no intelligence is alive to perform the neuron actions sufficient to comprehend or even search for the non-material, then perhaps it cannot exist?

With comp we can more easily define intelligence in arithmetic than in physical terms.

Don't take this as true, but arithmetic gives an example of rational, objective idealism, where matter apperance can emerge from infinities of number relations.

Other idealism exist by assuming that the fundamental reality is consciousness, or God, or whatever considered as being outside the physical realm.

Bruno





Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Pierz <pier...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:22 pm
Subject: Materialism and Buddhism

I studied Mahajana Tibetan Buddhism in Dharamsala (home of the Dalai Lama in exile) back in the day and I agree with Bruno and others that Buddhism is closer to idealism than materialism. However Buddhism ultimately rejects 'mind' too, since what we think of as mind is closely related to the personal self. The ultimate reality in Buddhism is nirvana or the void and all phenomena including mental phenomena are empty of inherent existence. It is 'a- theistic' in the sense that this ultimate reality is not a being like a god with an identity and thoughts. However Tibetan Buddhism, like other forms, does believe in the idea of god-like (and demon-like) beings in the phenomenal realms. To equate Buddhism with materialism on the basis of a few selected quotes would constitute a highly tendentious reading of the dharma and in my view is quite wrong. There is no possibility of liberation in materialism and the phenomenal world is seen as the
'real world', the very antithesis of the Buddhist view.

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