On 04 Jul 2013, at 14:31, [email protected] wrote:
Interesting Dr. Marchal,
Do you hold that Dr. Robert Lanza and Bob Berman, may be on to
something then? Lanza is a cell biologist, and Berman is an
astronomer. They, together, came up with the theory of biocentrism,
as the trigger to make probability real. That life, even at its
simplest structures (bacteria) act as an observer to sense the
universe, out of a cloud of probabilities swirling around us.
It is less wrong that many others idea, with respect to comp.
That, life consciously, and unconsciously selects the physical cosmos.
Life, or consciousness. or consciousness filters "non life". Comp, or
if you prefer, the "correct understanding of comp" is sympathetic with
such idea, unless simplified or taken too much literally.
All we need to have are the relations between number derivable from
the addition and multiplication laws.
This emulates, in the arithmetical Turing sense, the histories, and
we, first persons are distributed in those histories.
I have often used the term biology instead of psychology or theology.
They have called it the Biocentrsm Theory. Maybe life is what causes
the math to process as axioms, as programs (if you are a Stephen
Wolfram fan?)
Wolfram is still physicalist, and is close to digital physicalism,
which is not only a digital way to eliminate the subject, both also a
deny of the quantum reality. But I love cellular automata, and he
wrote entertaining books.
to emerge from the great probability 'cloud.'
The question is probability cloud of what? Which events? What is bio?
The amoeba problem is solved by phi_e() = e. I explain later.
Sex, embryogenesis and regeneration problems are solved by a variant
of above.
Numbers does that all the time, but the consciousness flux starts when
the number self-refers, and build coherent maps of their most probable
scenarios/dreams, until they wake up in more coherent scenarios, ad
infinitum.
Or, am I misunderstanding what you have intended? In both cases,
yours, and theirs, there is no specific, physical universe, because
it chrystalizes out of observation.
I think you understood well. The approach is of course different. I
start from the assumption that we are machines, and shows that the
physical chrysalises out of observation. In fact, it is just one
aspect of a theological reality (with immortal soul) which
crystalizes, or chysalises, you must choose :), from very simple, but
Turing universal (derivable from elementary arithmetic). Biocentrism
would be a part of the more theological processes, and a part of
physics needs some of the incommunicable (theological) resources. The
quantum, actually appears only on the theological part of the
observation, which fits better with the neoplatonists, compared to a
biocentrism still possibly conceived through an aristotelian
conception of reality. I don't know for sure as I did not study them.
In Charlie Stross's work of science fiction, Accelerondo, Stross
posits that the Big Bang was a statistical computation that ran over
14 billion years ago, and we are the remnant of the statistical
processing.
That science fiction.
Reality is beyond fiction :)
What can be said (or argued for) is that *assuming* that we are
machine (comp), itself fiction or reality we can never know (in
science), we belong to an infinity of (probably deep, in Bennett or
related sense) computations, and we can share them due to their
linearity at their core. It is an open problem if some oracles are at
play, but something like evolution is close to the halting oracle (in
Turing sense).
Bruno
Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:22 am
Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism
On 03 Jul 2013, at 23:48, [email protected] wrote:
Dr. Marchal,
Hello.
It's not an opinion, but a question motivated by observation. It
doesn't make this point of view, axiomatically, correct. But, I do
feel this issue needs to be addressed at some point, via scientific
measure. The question is how? What would be our motivation to
undertake this study-do non-material things exist? Can non-material
object exist. Or am I asking do non-existing objects exist? Or, do
non-material things exist elsewhere in our universe, but a
difficult to ordinarily detect?
You seem to assume that there is a physical universe. I don't assume
that.
You seem to assume Aristotle idea that what exist = what we can see,
or observe, measure ... but the ancient dream argument already show
that such inference is not valid.
God created the natural numbers and said add and multiply. All the
rest are dreams which exist due to the Turing universality of "add
and multiply".
You might have a difficulty to conceive that "physical existence"
might not be a primitive existence. Platonist have at the start
doubt that the physical reality is not a sort of illusion. Comp
explains that oit might be more rational to think so.
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism
On 03 Jul 2013, at 20:46, [email protected] wrote:
Not to be a jerk, but can someone give us an example of non-
materialism? Even human thoughts is neurons and chemicals sizzling
away in the skull.
This is your assumption. But Platonist believed that this view
might be wrong. And I argue that if we are machine, it ill be
easier to explain the illusion of matter to conscious number
relations (like what computer handled) than to expolain the
illusion of consciousness to material things.
Is not Ontology a discussion on what exists?
Yes, and with comp, you can consider that only 0 and its successor
exists, and that they obey to some laws (succession, addition,
multiplication: that's enough). Then you can prove in that theory
that all pieces of computations exist, and that matter appears, in
the conscious relative numbers as a stable illusion, obeying laws,
etc.
(Epistemology is what is knowledge or what do we know? If I
remember right).
Yes.
Can it then be said, via math that non-material objects exists?
They certainly exists in the logical sense: that we can prove that
prime number exists once we accept that 0 exist.
Does it really exist? But that is a new notion, and if you use it
you have to define it.
If no intelligence is alive to perform the neuron actions
sufficient to comprehend or even search for the non-material, then
perhaps it cannot exist?
With comp we can more easily define intelligence in arithmetic than
in physical terms.
Don't take this as true, but arithmetic gives an example of
rational, objective idealism, where matter apperance can emerge
from infinities of number relations.
Other idealism exist by assuming that the fundamental reality is
consciousness, or God, or whatever considered as being outside the
physical realm.
Bruno
Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Pierz <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:22 pm
Subject: Materialism and Buddhism
I studied Mahajana Tibetan Buddhism in Dharamsala (home of the
Dalai Lama in
exile) back in the day and I agree with Bruno and others that
Buddhism is closer
to idealism than materialism. However Buddhism ultimately rejects
'mind' too,
since what we think of as mind is closely related to the personal
self. The
ultimate reality in Buddhism is nirvana or the void and all
phenomena including
mental phenomena are empty of inherent existence. It is 'a-
theistic' in the
sense that this ultimate reality is not a being like a god with an
identity and
thoughts. However Tibetan Buddhism, like other forms, does believe
in the idea
of god-like (and demon-like) beings in the phenomenal realms. To
equate Buddhism
with materialism on the basis of a few selected quotes would
constitute a highly
tendentious reading of the dharma and in my view is quite wrong.
There is no
possibility of liberation in materialism and the phenomenal world
is seen as the
'real world', the very antithesis of the Buddhist view.
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