Interesting Dr. Marchal,

Do you hold that Dr. Robert Lanza and Bob Berman, may be on to something then? 
Lanza is a cell biologist, and Berman is an astronomer. They, together, came up 
with the theory of biocentrism, as the trigger to make probability real. That 
life, even at its simplest structures (bacteria) act as an observer to sense 
the universe, out of a cloud of probabilities swirling around us. That, life 
consciously, and unconsciously selects the physical cosmos. They have called it 
the Biocentrsm Theory. Maybe life is what causes the math to process as axioms, 
as programs (if you are a Stephen Wolfram fan?) to emerge from the great 
probability 'cloud.' Or, am I misunderstanding what you have intended? In both 
cases, yours, and theirs, there is no specific, physical universe, because it 
chrystalizes out of observation. 

In Charlie Stross's work of science fiction, Accelerondo, Stross posits that 
the Big Bang was a statistical computation that ran over 14 billion years ago, 
and we are the remnant of the statistical processing. 

Mitch



-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:22 am
Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism




On 03 Jul 2013, at 23:48, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


Dr. Marchal, 
 
Hello.
 
It's not an opinion, but a question motivated by observation. It doesn't make 
this point of view, axiomatically, correct. But, I do feel this issue needs to 
be addressed at some point, via scientific measure. The question is how? What 
would be our motivation to undertake this study-do non-material things exist? 
Can non-material object exist. Or am I asking do non-existing objects exist? 
Or, do non-material things exist elsewhere in our universe, but a difficult to 
ordinarily detect?



You seem to assume that there is a physical universe. I don't assume that. 
You seem to assume Aristotle idea that what exist = what we can see, or 
observe, measure ... but the ancient dream argument already show that such 
inference is not valid.


God created the natural numbers and said add and multiply. All the rest are 
dreams which exist due to the Turing universality of "add and multiply".


You might have a difficulty to conceive that "physical existence" might not be 
a primitive existence. Platonist have at the start doubt that the physical 
reality is not a sort of illusion. Comp explains that oit might be more 
rational to think so.


Bruno












-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism




On 03 Jul 2013, at 20:46, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


Not to be a jerk, but can someone give us an example of non-materialism? Even 
human thoughts is neurons and chemicals sizzling away in the skull. 



This is your assumption. But Platonist believed that this view might be wrong. 
And I argue that if we are machine, it ill be easier to explain the illusion of 
matter to conscious number relations (like what computer handled) than to 
expolain the illusion of consciousness to material things.




















Is not Ontology a discussion on what exists? 





Yes, and with comp, you can consider that only 0 and its successor exists, and 
that they obey to some laws (succession, addition, multiplication: that's 
enough). Then you can prove in that theory that all pieces of computations 
exist, and that matter appears, in the conscious relative numbers as a stable 
illusion, obeying laws, etc.










(Epistemology is what is knowledge or what do we know? If I remember right). 


Yes.






Can it then be said, via math that non-material objects exists? 



They certainly exists in the logical sense: that we can prove that prime number 
exists once we accept that 0 exist.
Does it really exist? But that is a new notion, and if you use it you have to 
define it. 






If no intelligence is alive to perform the neuron actions sufficient to 
comprehend or even search for the non-material, then perhaps it cannot exist? 



With comp we can more easily define intelligence in arithmetic than in physical 
terms. 


Don't take this as true, but arithmetic gives an example of rational, objective 
idealism, where matter apperance can emerge from infinities of number relations.


Other idealism exist by assuming that the fundamental reality is consciousness, 
or God, or whatever considered as being outside the physical realm.


Bruno








 
Mitch

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierz <pier...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:22 pm
Subject: Materialism and Buddhism


I studied Mahajana Tibetan Buddhism in Dharamsala (home of the Dalai Lama in 
xile) back in the day and I agree with Bruno and others that Buddhism is closer 
o idealism than materialism. However Buddhism ultimately rejects 'mind' too, 
ince what we think of as mind is closely related to the personal self. The 
ltimate reality in Buddhism is nirvana or the void and all phenomena including 
ental phenomena are empty of inherent existence. It is 'a-theistic' in the 
ense that this ultimate reality is not a being like a god with an identity and 
houghts. However Tibetan Buddhism, like other forms, does believe in the idea 
f god-like (and demon-like) beings in the phenomenal realms. To equate Buddhism 
ith materialism on the basis of a few selected quotes would constitute a highly 
endentious reading of the dharma and in my view is quite wrong. There is no 
ossibility of liberation in materialism and the phenomenal world is seen as the 
real world', the very antithesis of the Buddhist view.
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