Interesting Dr. Marchal, Do you hold that Dr. Robert Lanza and Bob Berman, may be on to something then? Lanza is a cell biologist, and Berman is an astronomer. They, together, came up with the theory of biocentrism, as the trigger to make probability real. That life, even at its simplest structures (bacteria) act as an observer to sense the universe, out of a cloud of probabilities swirling around us. That, life consciously, and unconsciously selects the physical cosmos. They have called it the Biocentrsm Theory. Maybe life is what causes the math to process as axioms, as programs (if you are a Stephen Wolfram fan?) to emerge from the great probability 'cloud.' Or, am I misunderstanding what you have intended? In both cases, yours, and theirs, there is no specific, physical universe, because it chrystalizes out of observation.
In Charlie Stross's work of science fiction, Accelerondo, Stross posits that the Big Bang was a statistical computation that ran over 14 billion years ago, and we are the remnant of the statistical processing. Mitch -----Original Message----- From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:22 am Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism On 03 Jul 2013, at 23:48, [email protected] wrote: Dr. Marchal, Hello. It's not an opinion, but a question motivated by observation. It doesn't make this point of view, axiomatically, correct. But, I do feel this issue needs to be addressed at some point, via scientific measure. The question is how? What would be our motivation to undertake this study-do non-material things exist? Can non-material object exist. Or am I asking do non-existing objects exist? Or, do non-material things exist elsewhere in our universe, but a difficult to ordinarily detect? You seem to assume that there is a physical universe. I don't assume that. You seem to assume Aristotle idea that what exist = what we can see, or observe, measure ... but the ancient dream argument already show that such inference is not valid. God created the natural numbers and said add and multiply. All the rest are dreams which exist due to the Turing universality of "add and multiply". You might have a difficulty to conceive that "physical existence" might not be a primitive existence. Platonist have at the start doubt that the physical reality is not a sort of illusion. Comp explains that oit might be more rational to think so. Bruno -----Original Message----- From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism On 03 Jul 2013, at 20:46, [email protected] wrote: Not to be a jerk, but can someone give us an example of non-materialism? Even human thoughts is neurons and chemicals sizzling away in the skull. This is your assumption. But Platonist believed that this view might be wrong. And I argue that if we are machine, it ill be easier to explain the illusion of matter to conscious number relations (like what computer handled) than to expolain the illusion of consciousness to material things. Is not Ontology a discussion on what exists? Yes, and with comp, you can consider that only 0 and its successor exists, and that they obey to some laws (succession, addition, multiplication: that's enough). Then you can prove in that theory that all pieces of computations exist, and that matter appears, in the conscious relative numbers as a stable illusion, obeying laws, etc. (Epistemology is what is knowledge or what do we know? If I remember right). Yes. Can it then be said, via math that non-material objects exists? They certainly exists in the logical sense: that we can prove that prime number exists once we accept that 0 exist. Does it really exist? But that is a new notion, and if you use it you have to define it. If no intelligence is alive to perform the neuron actions sufficient to comprehend or even search for the non-material, then perhaps it cannot exist? With comp we can more easily define intelligence in arithmetic than in physical terms. Don't take this as true, but arithmetic gives an example of rational, objective idealism, where matter apperance can emerge from infinities of number relations. Other idealism exist by assuming that the fundamental reality is consciousness, or God, or whatever considered as being outside the physical realm. Bruno Mitch -----Original Message----- From: Pierz <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:22 pm Subject: Materialism and Buddhism I studied Mahajana Tibetan Buddhism in Dharamsala (home of the Dalai Lama in xile) back in the day and I agree with Bruno and others that Buddhism is closer o idealism than materialism. However Buddhism ultimately rejects 'mind' too, ince what we think of as mind is closely related to the personal self. The ltimate reality in Buddhism is nirvana or the void and all phenomena including ental phenomena are empty of inherent existence. It is 'a-theistic' in the ense that this ultimate reality is not a being like a god with an identity and houghts. However Tibetan Buddhism, like other forms, does believe in the idea f god-like (and demon-like) beings in the phenomenal realms. To equate Buddhism ith materialism on the basis of a few selected quotes would constitute a highly endentious reading of the dharma and in my view is quite wrong. There is no ossibility of liberation in materialism and the phenomenal world is seen as the real world', the very antithesis of the Buddhist view. -- ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List" group. o unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email o [email protected]. o post to this group, send email to [email protected]. isit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. or more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
