On 03 Jul 2013, at 23:48, [email protected] wrote:
Dr. Marchal,
Hello.
It's not an opinion, but a question motivated by observation. It
doesn't make this point of view, axiomatically, correct. But, I do
feel this issue needs to be addressed at some point, via scientific
measure. The question is how? What would be our motivation to
undertake this study-do non-material things exist? Can non-material
object exist. Or am I asking do non-existing objects exist? Or, do
non-material things exist elsewhere in our universe, but a difficult
to ordinarily detect?
You seem to assume that there is a physical universe. I don't assume
that.
You seem to assume Aristotle idea that what exist = what we can see,
or observe, measure ... but the ancient dream argument already show
that such inference is not valid.
God created the natural numbers and said add and multiply. All the
rest are dreams which exist due to the Turing universality of "add and
multiply".
You might have a difficulty to conceive that "physical existence"
might not be a primitive existence. Platonist have at the start doubt
that the physical reality is not a sort of illusion. Comp explains
that oit might be more rational to think so.
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Materialism and Buddhism
On 03 Jul 2013, at 20:46, [email protected] wrote:
Not to be a jerk, but can someone give us an example of non-
materialism? Even human thoughts is neurons and chemicals sizzling
away in the skull.
This is your assumption. But Platonist believed that this view might
be wrong. And I argue that if we are machine, it ill be easier to
explain the illusion of matter to conscious number relations (like
what computer handled) than to expolain the illusion of
consciousness to material things.
Is not Ontology a discussion on what exists?
Yes, and with comp, you can consider that only 0 and its successor
exists, and that they obey to some laws (succession, addition,
multiplication: that's enough). Then you can prove in that theory
that all pieces of computations exist, and that matter appears, in
the conscious relative numbers as a stable illusion, obeying laws,
etc.
(Epistemology is what is knowledge or what do we know? If I
remember right).
Yes.
Can it then be said, via math that non-material objects exists?
They certainly exists in the logical sense: that we can prove that
prime number exists once we accept that 0 exist.
Does it really exist? But that is a new notion, and if you use it
you have to define it.
If no intelligence is alive to perform the neuron actions
sufficient to comprehend or even search for the non-material, then
perhaps it cannot exist?
With comp we can more easily define intelligence in arithmetic than
in physical terms.
Don't take this as true, but arithmetic gives an example of
rational, objective idealism, where matter apperance can emerge from
infinities of number relations.
Other idealism exist by assuming that the fundamental reality is
consciousness, or God, or whatever considered as being outside the
physical realm.
Bruno
Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Pierz <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:22 pm
Subject: Materialism and Buddhism
I studied Mahajana Tibetan Buddhism in Dharamsala (home of the
Dalai Lama in
exile) back in the day and I agree with Bruno and others that
Buddhism is closer
to idealism than materialism. However Buddhism ultimately rejects
'mind' too,
since what we think of as mind is closely related to the personal
self. The
ultimate reality in Buddhism is nirvana or the void and all
phenomena including
mental phenomena are empty of inherent existence. It is 'a-
theistic' in the
sense that this ultimate reality is not a being like a god with an
identity and
thoughts. However Tibetan Buddhism, like other forms, does believe
in the idea
of god-like (and demon-like) beings in the phenomenal realms. To
equate Buddhism
with materialism on the basis of a few selected quotes would
constitute a highly
tendentious reading of the dharma and in my view is quite wrong.
There is no
possibility of liberation in materialism and the phenomenal world
is seen as the
'real world', the very antithesis of the Buddhist view.
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