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On 19.08.2013, at 15:10, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Sure, it's useful. I'm actually of the opinion that hypocrisy is our
> > most important intellectual skill. The ability to advertise certain
> > norms and then not follow them helped build civilization.

Hi Terren,

Hypocrisy allows us to overcome tragedy of the commons type situations. Purely 
rational and selfish agents recognize the prisoner dilemma and act accordingly. 
How to force cooperation? One way is to limit the rationality of animals, but 
then we get stuck with things like social insects. To get higher intelligence + 
cooperation, something else is needed. That is the role of hypocrisy. One 
obvious example is the hell myth. If you believe in hell you will cooperate 
without otherwise compromising your rationality. The people who invented the 
hell myth bootstrapped new levels of civilization by being Hypocrites -- if you 
go back far enough you are bound to find people who endorse the idea without 
truly believing in it.

Life is full of more subtle examples. One of my favorites: how most people 
claim they value innovation and creativity when secretly they oppose these 
things -- they are dangerous to the status quo.

Cheers,
Telmo

> 
> Telmo,
> 
> Given all the intellectual skills one could identify, that is a strong claim. 
> Would you elaborate?  How did that help build civilization?
> 
> Thanks,
> Terren
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> 
> wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 5:25 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> > I don't really find the Turing Test that meaningful, to be honest.
>> >
>> >
>> > I am certain that in your like you have met some people that you consider
>> > brilliant and some that are as dumb as a sack full of doorknobs, if it's 
>> > not
>> > the Turing test how did you differentiate the geniuses from the imbeciles?
>> >
>> >> > I find it a much more worthwhile endeavour to create a machine that can
>> >> > understand what we mean
>> >
>> >
>> > And the only way you can tell if a machine (or another human being)
>> > understands what you mean or not is by observing the subsequent behavior.
>> 
>> I completely agree.
>> 
>> However, the Turing test is a very specific instance of a "subsequent
>> behavior" test. It's one where a machine is asked to be
>> undistinguishable from a human being when communicating through a text
>> terminal. This will entail a lot of lying. (e.g: "what do you look
>> like?"). It's a hard goal, and it will surely help AI progress, but
>> it's not, in my opinion, an ideal goal.
>> 
>> >> > like a human does, without the need to convince us that it has human
>> >> > emotions
>> >
>> >
>> > Some humans are VERY good at convincing other humans that they have certain
>> > emotions when they really don't, like actors or con-men; evolution has
>> > determined that skillful lying can be useful.
>> 
>> Sure, it's useful. I'm actually of the opinion that hypocrisy is our
>> most important intellectual skill. The ability to advertise certain
>> norms and then not follow them helped build civilization.
>> 
>> But a subtle problem with the Turing test is that it hides one of the
>> hurdles (in my important, the most significant hurdle) with the
>> progress in AI: defining precisely what the problem is. The Turing
>> test is a toy test.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Telmo.
>> 
>> >
>> > John K Clark
>> >
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