1) rationality (logic) in this case is to mean founded on justified
principles. This is inherently a normative judgment. the principles that
govern a deterministic system needn't appeal to our psychology as
justified, this is what i mean by determined doesn't mean logical. none of
my desires seem to me logically justified, but that doesnt imply they are
2) your thesis is essentially, "i cant see how a set of rules could lead to
to desire, i cant see how a set of rules could lead something that has
experiences that seem to have irreducible qualities, therefore there can be
no such rules." that's fine i suppose, but I'm unable to pretend that your
blindness is some sort of insight. i just think you havent looked hard
On Tuesday, September 3, 2013, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 8:57:13 PM UTC-4, Dennis Ochei wrote:
>> What UV looks like will depend on how it is transduced into the nervous
>> system. I could add a new opsin into your blue cones and it would appear to
>> be a shade of blue.
> Sure, we can look at an infra-red camera too and see IR light as green or
> some other color. That isn't what I'm talking about. I am talking about new
> primary colors.
>> Or, I could achieve the transduction in such a way that UV doesn't
>> confuse with blue. In which case UV will look different from other colors
>> *in way you cannot describe because you don't have access to how you
>> condition your behavior based of the intensity of UV light. *
> It wouldn't matter if you did have access to how you condition your
> "behavior based on the intensity of the UV light". Color cannot be
> described, it can only be experienced directly. I don't want you to waste
> our time trying to tell me what I already know.
>> I've told you in a rudimentary form what is required to build a system
>> that has drives and motivations, from parts that are inanimate.
> Not at all. You are projecting drives and motivations onto a system that
> is unconsciously serving a function that serves your drives and motivations.
>> Nature has constructed such a device using 302 neurons. It learns, and it
>> has motivations.
> The neurons are an expression of the motivations, not the other way around.
>> Is your argument here that if we model the nematode deterministically,
>> its ability to learn and its biological drives will vanish like smoke?
> Does a rabbit's taste for carrots vanish just because we model him as Bugs
> Bunny? Yes. Models, cartoons, figures, functions, shapes, descriptions,
> simulations...none of them can have any sense of being or feeling. Bugs
> Bunny is not a rabbit. He is a symbol which reminds our psychology of
> particular themes which overlap with rabbit themes.
>> Because if so, I'd bet good money that you're wrong.
> Sure, I'd love to take that bet. I was going to say $10,000 but I don't
> think that you are going to pay that when you lose. What amount sounds good?
>> Drives are traceable to electrochemical gradients "trying" to resolve
>> themselves, driven by thermodynamic laws. Logic is how the pipes are
>> connected up, desire is the water pump.
> I agree that microphysical events correspond to microphenomenal
> experiences, but that does not mean that all that has to happen to scale up
> an inanimate object's thermodynamic motives to mammalian quality emotions
> is that it must be configured in the correct shapes. That is an assumption,
> and a seductively popular one, but it is 100% wrong. Using the hypothesis
> of sense as the sole universal primitive, we should anticipate that the
> relevant qualifier of sensitivity is not structure but experience. Giving
> your cat a computer will not make him computer literate, and dressing a
> water pump up in human clothes does not cause a human. The clues are all
> around us. No machine or program has every succeeded in being anything but
> completely impersonal and psychologically empty.
>> Furthermore, deterministic does not equal logical. There is no logic
>> behind why opposites attract, even though this logically leads to like
>> dissolving like. Whatever axioms there are in this universe, they are not
>> logically justified.
> Determinism doesn't explain why opposites attract, but given that they do
> in some particular context, determinism is the logic of the consequences of
> that attraction. Determinism doesn't address everything, but whatever it
> does address is considered to behave according to the logic of the
> precedents which have been established. If determinism was not logical, how
> could it claim to determine anything?
>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 3:42:53 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>>>> On 9/3/2013 12:32 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote:
>>>> > Telmo and Brent,
>>>> > The Humean quote sums it up nicely. You can think of a human as a
>>>> collection of desires
>>>> > and a reasoning process that arbitrates between and attempts to
>>>> realize them. In the
>>>> > process of reasoning, one might bring about new desires, but
>>>> reasoning is always
>>>> > employed by desires one currently has.
>>>> > Just couple days ago I was trying futilely to logically deduce what
>>>> it is that I should
>>>> > want to do, I realized that "logic is the servant of desire," (im not
>>>> quite as eloquent
>>>> > as hume, it seems...) and to find a logically justified want is
>>>> futile. Desire is
>>>> > inherently illogical.
>>>> I'd say "extralogical". That doesn't mean though that your desires
>>>> aren't caused (by
>>>> evolution, by metabolism,...). Many of them may even be predictable -
>>>> that's how
>>>> advertising agencies make a living.
>>> *Your* desires can be included in your experience by evolution, etc,
>>> provided that desire in general exists as a possibility in the universe. No
>>> amount of statistical reproduction of inanimate objects or unconscious
>>> machines could cause a desire to appear out of nowhere though. Could it?
>>> Why would it?
>>>> > Turns out Hume beat me to this insight by quite a bit, but I suppose
>>>> he had a head start, =p
>>>> > It seems that if we were completely logical, we would simply cease to
>>>> Dostoevsky beat you to that one, "If everything on Earth were rational,
>>>> nothing would
>>>> happen." But he had a head start too. :-)
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