I am still amazed that they were able to infer that spacetime cannot be granular above a value that is enormously smaller than the Planck Scale, which itself is far beyond the energy levels by any atom smasher we can build. This by itself is an impressive bit of leverage to make assertions about reality on that scale. And apparently it has important consequences for several of the contending theories out there. such quantum loop gravity.
I am intrigued by the suggestion that there really is not that much fundamental reality in this matrix of spacetime in which we perceive ourselves and all things we can see to be immersed in. Quoting Russel's earlier post on this "as I've point out many time, as space-time is most likely a model construct, rather than actually being something physical "out there"." - an interesting perspective, if I am understanding you correctly that what is commonly perceived as being the fundamental fabric of reality is in reality a model construct of I am guessing our perception. an artifact of the process of perception of our minds. Or have I wandered far from what you actually intended.. J Spacetime, certainly is something we take for granted and it occupies a most central role in every single one of our senses as well. I find it elusively hard to even imagine reality sans spacetime, but then again just because it seems so fundamental and real in our commonplace experience of being doesn't necessarily mean that it therefore must be. It does seem however necessary in order for us to make any sense of our world. I cannot conceive of a world without spacetime and causality (the one way movement of the flow of time) - which only means that that is the limit of my senses. If I try to imagine a universe that is not shall we say projected down onto a screen of spacetime. my imagining quickly begins to trend to the psychedelic - which perhaps is what it would be as it overwhelmed our limited senses. Do you see spacetime as being necessary for all models or just for our particular anthropomorphic universe in the multiverse? I am guessing you would say the latter. What is the underlying reality which then models spacetime? It seems there must be some underlying something there because space time has such accurate and predictive qualities - the thrown stone will in fact follow the trajectory and all observers in the vicinity will experience a cohesive experience of reality in regards to the trajectory and impact of the stone. Spacetime ties our star system into our galaxy, local group, cluster, and the larger mega structures of our universe as we know it and it provides a fabric for reality to exist in that is highly predictable and predictive. If spacetime itself is a part of a model, the role it plays seems absolutely essential to a reality that makes any sense - it relates things to each other and places them in relation to other things in a manner that is the same essentially for all observers of sober mind - at least at a basic level of agreement. Spacetime keeps the moon where it is and everything in perspective to everything else and it would all basically tally up and agree, if every observer measured what was being measured from their perspective and transposed to other perspectives. What I am asking is could there be a deeper more generalized analog for this "fabric" that manifests in our anthropomorphic universe for us as spacetime; perhaps some abstract mathematical ordering principle that establishes and tracks the multitude of relationships between things along all possible causal branches? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Ruquist Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 6:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: String theory and superconductors and classical liquids... The 10^-48 meters for the upper limit on grannular size of space is better compared to the Planck Scale at 10^-35. So space is smooth at least to 10^-13 Planck scales consistent with Fermi gamma ray arrival results. Gamma rays a factor of ten different in energy arrived from across the universe at the same time whereas granularity would delay one measurably. On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> wrote: That interpretation of the signal picked up by that dectector in Hannover has also subsequently been disputed by ESA measurements of gamma ray polarization from distant gamma ray bursts. If as these measurements seem to suggest the universe is not pixelated then anything that relies on the universe being pixelated must also get a close re-examination to see if they withstand these apparent highly accurate measurements of distant gamma ray burst polarization -- or rather the apparent lack of any harmonization of the polarization induced by a granular nature of spacetime, with such granularization apparently excluded down to much smaller scales than previously reached. So I am left still asking myself the question is the universe granular or not -- the ESA experiment seems to suggest it is not down to the scale of 10^-48 meters (by comparison the size of a single proton is around 1.6 X 10^ -15 meters, which is inconceivably huger than the previous number) Quoting from their press release: " By examining the polarisation of gamma-ray bursts as they reach Earth, we should be able to detect this graininess, as the polarisation of the photons that arrive here is affected by the spacetime that they travel through. The grains should twist them, changing the direction in which they oscillate so that they arrive with the same polarization. Also, higher energy gamma rays should be twisted more than lower ones." "However, the satellite detected no such twisting - there were no differences in the polarization between different energies found to the accuracy limits of the data, which are 10,000 times better than any previous readings. That means that any quantum grains that exist would have to measure 10^-48 meters or smaller." In the European Space Agency press release, Philippe Laurent said the find "ruled out some string theories and quantum loop gravity theories." http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/07/06/137634397/physicists-almost-c <http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/07/06/137634397/physicists-almost- certain-the-universe-is-not-a-hologram> ertain-the-universe-is-not-a-hologram -----Original Message----- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 5:33 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: String theory and superconductors and classical liquids... Given the "newsworthiness" of such a discovery, and the fact that I've never heard of the Hannover signal until now, indicates perhaps not. That's not proof, of course :). On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 05:12:52PM -0700, Chris de Morsella wrote: > "Quantum physics is almost phrased in terms of information processing > it's suggestive that you will find information processing at the root > of everything." > > Vlatko Vedral, University of Oxford > > > > On so many levels the universe appears to operate at a binary level > (up, down, +/-, spin and so many other properties) > > > > One of the fundamental aspects of reality that I have been curious > about -- since hearing about the signal picked up (in 2008) by the GEO > 600 gravitational wave detector in Hannover, Germany that seemed to > suggest that space-time is pixelated -- is whether reality is > pixelated. Is there a smallest pixel of space time (or does space time > have infinite room at the bottom scale) If reality is pixelated at > this fundamental level then it seems more likely to be computable; > however if the Hannover signal was misinterpreted and even the > smallest imaginable chunk of space time can forever be sub-divided > into smaller and smaller space-time locus' or regions then computability becomes harder to imagine. > > > > Given the volume of posts on this list I am sure this has been talked > about before, after all its not new news. I am wondering if the > Hannover signals (and the interpretation of those signals) have been reconfirmed or not. > > > > Cheers, > > Chris > > > > From: everything-list@googlegroups.com > [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:57 PM > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > Subject: String theory and superconductors and classical liquids... > > > > ...these are a few of my favourite things! > > In the 12/10/13 issue of "New Scientist", in an article entitled "All > or nothing?" I read that "certain aspects of the behaviour of [high > temperature superconductors] are much easier to capture using the > mathematics of string theory." > > And... > > > "every state of matter matches up with a gravitational scenario that > can be described using (...) string theory. Superconductors can be > understood as stars made of charged particles and (...) Higgs bosons. > Classical liquids can be modelled using the mathematics of black holes > that do not have spin and have no electric charge." > > That struck me as rather mind-boggling. How can a theory of 10 (?) > dimensional space-time and vibrating strings relate stars to > superconductors, etc? (And are there other parallelisms waiting to be > discovered - other physical phenomena that are mathematically > identical when they go through the looking glass, as it were?) > > This seems to me to be saying something profound about reality. I just > wish I knew what it was. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> . > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> . > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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