On 20 Nov 2013, at 21:57, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

To say that F = m . a or e= m c2 as truth it is necessary toaccept certain beliefs. Belief that at the next moment the laws willnot change for example.

`e=mc^2 is an interesting theory (belief), or an interesting theorem in`

`an interesting theory. True. Perhaps, but that's a question for`

`theologian, not physicists.`

Let´s go to a human level:in evolutionary terms, I would say that truth is a belief hardcodedby natural selection.

`This is self-defeating or circular. You need the "truth" of natural`

`selection to make sense of it.`

Truth would say, is the constants plus the algorthm,

`OK. But that's equivalent with saying that we accept elementary`

`arithmetic as true, and then proceed from there. With comp, we cannot`

`take more axioms.`

The data that the living being processes, are the beliefs.

OK.

The pivotal affirmation from Conrad Lorenz: "The kantian a prioriwhere shaped in our mind as a result of natural selection"

This presupposed some theory, implicitly as being true.

has a very far reaching: it means that self evident truths like theexistence of persons, animals, space, time and all self evidenttruths that derives from them are hardcoded, and we have hardcodedalgorithms for processing them. That is the reason why they appearbehind us and we react to them without any doubt about theirexistence. We also have also algoritm for adquiring derived conceptsin certain ways and not in others.

`OK. But all this depends on your fundamental theory. What is "natural`

`selection" when you have no time, no space, no persons, etc. What are`

`your starting assumptions?`

Truth in a ample sense is whatever that kick-back: a stone wall forexample.

`OK. I like to see truth as a queen which win all wars without any army`

`(but that can take times!).`

But that is not all. in evolutionary terms, the kick-back can happenacross generations. If we doubt about certain abstract truths (liketo kill is bad),

That's not a truth. It is a normative imperative. (A good one imo).

we will not receive an inmediate negative feedback, but perhaps in afew years or even our gene/meme descendants. That is why theLorenz`s mechanism has included in our mind a lot of innate commonsense truths).That materialist explanation paradoxically end up in the idea thatthere is no space neither time neither persons outside the world ofthe mind, that is what really exist. Out of the mind there isnothing. Perhaps mathematics.

`With comp we can't really use more than arithmetic for the ontology,`

`and we need full higher order mathematics for anything inside`

`arithmetic seen from arithmetic. Arithmetic seen from inside is much`

`bigger than arithmetic (cf the Skolem phenomenon).`

I´m in aggreement with Craig on this.

`I don't see this. Craig assumes some primitive matter, and attribute`

`mind to it. You seem more to be in agreement with comp than with`

`Craig, it seems to me.`

Bruno

2013/6/3 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> On 03 Jun 2013, at 01:41, Stephen Paul King wrote:How do we integrate empirical data into Bp&p?Technically, by restricting p to the "leaves of the UD*" (the true,and thus provable, sigma_1 sentences).Then to get the physics (the probability measure à-la-UDA), you cando the same with Bp & Dp & p. Think about the WM-duplication, wherethe W or M selection plays the role of a typical empirical data.More on this when you came back to this, probably on FOAR. BrunoOn Saturday, June 1, 2013 3:41:56 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: Russell wrote:"...When it comes to Bp & p capturing the notion of knowledge, Ican see it captures the notion of mathematical knowledge, ie truetheorems, as opposed to true conjectures, say, which aren'tknowledge.But I am vaguely sceptical it captures the notion of scientificknowledge, which has more to do with falsifiability, than with proof.And that's about where I left it - years ago. ..." Interesting difference between 'scientific' and 'mathematical'(see the Nobel Prize distinction) - also in falsifiability, thatdoes not automatically escape the agnostic questioning about thecircumstances of the falsifying and the original images. Samedifficulty as in judging "proof"."Scientific knowledge" indeed is part of a belief system. Inconventional sciences we THINK we know, in math we assume(apologies, Bruno). John MOn Thu, May 30, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Russell Standish<li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote:On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 12:04:13PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > You mean unprovable? I get confused because it seems that you > sometimes use Bp to mean "proves p" and sometimes "believes p" > To a mathematician, belief and proof are the same thing. I believe inthis theorem because I can prove it. If I can't prove it, then Idon'tbelieve it - it is merely a conjecture. In modal logic, the operator B captures both proof and supposedly belief. Obviously it captures a mathematician's notion of belief - whether that extends to a scientists notion of belief, or a Christian's notion is another matter entirely. When it comes to Bp & p capturing the notion of knowledge, I can seeit captures the notion of mathematical knowledge, ie true theorems,asopposed to true conjectures, say, which aren't knowledge. But I am vaguely sceptical it captures the notion of scientific knowledge, which has more to do with falsifiability, than with proof. And that's about where I left it - years ago. Cheers -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpc...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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