On 23 Nov 2013, at 00:24, John Mikes wrote:

Bruno:
Brent's dichotomy - as you pointed out - about exist and true may go deeper in my opinion: If we THINK of something: it DOES exist indeed (in our mind) but may not be true. I refrain from calling T R U E anything in our restsricted (partial) knowledge capability. "WE THINK IT IS TRUE" is in our belief system.

I refrain from using both "real" and "true" in any scientific proposal. But in theology, we still need the concept of real or true, because it is part of the subject matter. I don't separate them. True is only an assertative variant of real, and both reality and truth concerns the many form of existence. Atoms exists, temperature exists, countries exist, persons exist; all in different true senses, for example.



Now it is up to you to call the "EXISTING" thought as 'truly existing'????

I reserve the terming "really existing" or "truly existing" for the terms which are assumed in the base (ontological) theory. But that is only a convention, depending of the choice of the basic terms, which is arbitrary insofar that we have laws making the base system universal (in Turing sense).


We fabricate 'truth' in this respect but only in this respect. Otherwise I am just waiting for additional input disproving what I 'beleived-in' so far.

Me too.



PS I read this remark of mine to my wife who asked: if somebody KILLS a person (cuts her throat): is it TRUE, or NOT? (pointing to the more convoluted sides of the topic). I tried to save face by saying: Don't you apply our 'wisdom-concepts' to practical life! We seek the theoretical truth! (laugh).

Very good remark by your wife!



(As a matter of fact 'true' is not confoundable with 'truth' just as conscious is not the adjective representing consciousness - in most cases)

Agreed. Now you can define truth (in some domain) by the set of true propositions (about the objects of that domain). Logicians do things like that. It can help. Arithmetical truth = the collection of all true arithmetical sentences, for example.

Bruno



JM


On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 4:13 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 21 Nov 2013, at 19:28, meekerdb wrote:

On 11/21/2013 1:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Let´s go to a human level:

in evolutionary terms, I would say that truth is a belief hardcoded by natural selection.

This is self-defeating or circular. You need the "truth" of natural selection to make sense of it.

That seems to confound "truth" and "existence".

I don't see why. I was talking on the truth of the evolution facts.



There are some facts that make the theory of natural selection true (if it is true).

Yes.



Those facts may include hardwired beliefs in human brains and then they exist whether there is a theory that expresses them or not.

So you say "they exist" is true. What I said is that this is circular when used to define truth from evolution.




It's not circular if it is grounded in facts.

No. Evolution remains circular as an explanation of truth (it is not circular as an explanation of the species, but that's another topic).

Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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