From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 1:14 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Belief vs Truth
On 23 Nov 2013, at 07:09, Chris de Morsella wrote:
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:11 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Belief vs Truth
On 11/22/2013 3:24 PM, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno:
Brent's dichotomy - as you pointed out - about exist and true may go deeper
in my opinion:
If we THINK of something: it DOES exist indeed (in our mind) but may not be
true. I refrain from calling T R U E anything in our restsricted (partial)
knowledge capability. "WE THINK IT IS TRUE" is in our belief system.
Now it is up to you to call the "EXISTING" thought as 'truly existing'????
We fabricate 'truth' in this respect but only in this respect. Otherwise I
am just waiting for additional input disproving what I 'beleived-in' so far.
John M
PS I read this remark of mine to my wife who asked: if somebody KILLS a
person (cuts her throat):
is it TRUE, or NOT? (pointing to the more convoluted sides of the topic). I
tried to save face by saying:
Don't you apply our 'wisdom-concepts' to practical life! We seek the
theoretical truth! (laugh).
(As a matter of fact 'true' is not confoundable with 'truth' just as
conscious is not the adjective representing consciousness - in most cases)
JM
In my meta-physics "true" is an attribute of a sentence meaning that the
sentence expresses some fact. Facts do not depend on sentences, they can be
facts even though no one says so in a sentence. "Exist" has different
meaning in different contexts. In physics the essential parts of a model
are thought to exist just in case the model is true.
Truth, perhaps, depends on some frame of reference; one could even describe
it as an emergent phenomena that has meaning only within the frame of
reference from which it emerges.
Logicians distinguish "theory" (which are set of sentences close for some
applications of some inference rules), and models, which are mathematical
structures together with a notion of "satisfaction of sentences". So a
sentence (close formula) is never true per se. It is only satisfied, or not,
by this or that model. Validity or theoremhood will correspond with the idea
of being true in *all* models of a theory, at least for first order theories
(which have such nice model theory). In that case the validity of a
reasoning is independent of the interpretation of the theory.
Physics, biology and theology brought some difficulty here, as it assumes
some "reality", and normally we should distinguish the theory, the models of
the theory, and the relation between those models and reality.
Physicists usually ignore the model theory level intermediate between theory
and reality, and logicians, like mathematicians, ignore "reality", which
they take as a dirty notion used only by engineers or philosophers.
>>Now, I can agree that many truth can emerge, but they have to emerge from
some truth, which are needed to be considered as primitive. With comp,
computer science or just arithmetic constitute(s) enough basic truth to
explain the emergence of many different notions of truth and existence
(indeed one for each "person points of view").
Very well put. I am attracted by this idea that some abstract mathematical
reality -- itself emerging from the vastly numerous and subtle interactions
of orthogonal infinities of recursive null sets/equations existing outside
and apart from any and all frames of reference, by which our, and any other,
for that matter, emerged reality are characterized. It provides an elegant
means to exit from those endless hall of mirrors logic situations -- or
turtles holding turtles (also a nice metaphor) that is uncovered at the
bottom of so many attempts to present a foundation for everything.
Chris
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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