On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 2013/12/6 Platonist Guitar Cowboy <multiplecit...@gmail.com> > >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2013/12/5 Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a >>>>> religion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. >>>> >>>> How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? Would >>>> you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for >>>> developing the beliefs? >>>> >>> >>> Science is a way to discover the world, nothing is certain, what you >>> believe now may be shown wrong tomorrow... that's not the case with >>> religion... >>> >>> Quentin >>> >>> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> >>> >>>> >>>> On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2013/12/5 Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux >>>>> <allco...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a >>>>>> religion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Could you give an example of a religion without dogma ? >>>> >>>> >>>> Platonism, buddhism branches, taoism, neoplatonism, the individual >>>> religion of all mystics, and ... the theology of numbers. >>>> >>> >>> Are you saying buddhism/taoism have no dogma ? that's wrong, they have, >>> plenty... they have no god, sure, but really there is a set of thing that >>> qualify as dogma... if you reject everything buddhism tell you (as they >>> fake you can), how can you qualify yourself as buddhist ? >>> >> >> >> Everybody knows Wikipedia can be helpful but often does a terrible job at >> oversimplifying, especially on theological matters, but you defeat them on >> that point today, regarding theology. >> >> Oversimplified Wikipedia definition (noting your "Science is a way to >> discover the world etc. + dogma accusation of Taoism etc.): >> >> >> >> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism> The term Tao means "way", "path" or >> "principle", and can also be found in Chinese philosophies and religions >> other than Taoism. In Taoism, however, Tao denotes something that is both >> the source and the driving force behind everything that exists. It is >> ultimately ineffable <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability>: "The Tao >> that can be told is not the eternal Tao."[1] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#cite_note-Laozi-1>* >> > > Nothing I say has meaning... great... what's the point ? It's just a > sentence that sounds good but is totally empty. > Nah, Tao can still be spoken, just not eternal. Like we can say set of all sets or all partial recursive functions but it doesn't lead to decidable proof, diagonalization and contradiction, or help us in some absolute sense, even if serving as some pointer. So this doesn't rule out notions like emanation, as posed by Plotinus or arithmetic successor function and multiplication operator, that are, as examples, not or only part, reflection, emanation etc. of that unspeakable name/one/Tao. To confuse this with nihilism is understandable but inappropriate because it does refer to some unnamable principle, where nihilism crudely put, does not. > > >> >> So your "world discovery" quoted above is already too dogmatic; even to a >> Wiki-Taoist. >> > > Are you saying we can't ? Yes, one hypothesis of science, is that the > world is understandable... if it is not, all of what you're saying is > useless. > > Science use hypothesis, not dogma, and yes there are fundamental > hypothesis, if the world in fine is shown not to be understandable, science > goal will have failed and will not be recoverable. > Agreed, and I don't think the above mentioned theologies would have much of a problem with that... I still don't see how an interpretation of science protects it from being practiced or manipulated dogmatically, same as with theologies though. E.g. with some fundamentally atheist interpretation, it can even seem more treacherous and dishonest by using empirical data as proof of truth because of self-evidence tricks of culture and local biological and predatory circumstance. In this example, Science doesn't lay the ambiguity and controversy of its axioms on the table and can be abused in the same manner as any other system of beliefs. PGC > > Quentin > > >> >> There is just path or way, where the goal, purpose, or god stays >> undefined. Your "discovery" marker, implies some "correct point", some kind >> of progress can be ultimately found, defined, and correctly pursued. This >> is magnitudes more dogmatic than the poor little Wiki oversimplification. >> >> Also your position of theology necessitating some fixed, inflexible dogma >> is not supported, again even by an imprecise (compared with Laozi writings >> and their equivalents in other theologies mentioned in this context) wiki >> quote: the code, language, script "cannot be told". So in the first two >> sentences of "wiki definition" your image of identical, zombified robots >> following some trivial, fixed, dogmatic theology fanatically, concerning >> theology and Taoism here in particular, is without support. As with >> Science, people interpret theology in a variety of ways; more or less >> literally etc. PGC >> >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Quentin >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> How do you relate science to beliefs about the world and reality? >>>>> Would you say science the collection of those beliefs, or the method for >>>>> developing the beliefs? >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
